*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Vyrerus]

1. Venat correctly surmised

1. Venat didn't give Ancient society a chance to answer the song of oblivion, because she didn't reveal it to them. She kept to vague platitudes, and then killed her entire race, after they'd put a bulwark in place to save and protect all life on Etheirys.

2. Wrong! The former researcher who created the Elpis flowers understood Dynamis to an extent. Meteion even refers to them as entelechies. Hermes implies that there are yet still other entelechies, but Meteion is, "The first possessed of free will." He is also 100% candid an open about why he created Meteion when asked why by Emet-selch, though he does not delve into details at the time.

[YianKutku]

2. Wrong! The former researcher who created the Elpis flowers understood Dynamis to an extent. Meteion even refers to them as entelechies. Hermes implies that there are yet still other entelechies, but Meteion is, "The first possessed of free will." He is also 100% candid an open about why he created Meteion when asked why by Emet-selch, though he does not delve into details at the time.

No, the former researcher did not. Hermes referred to Elpis flowers as "a happy accident".

[Vyrerus]

No, the former researcher did not. Hermes referred to Elpis flowers as "a happy accident".

Hermes's exact dialogue on the subject.

Most discoveries in history are, "Happy Accidents." Understanding comes later. This is the root of all Ancients discovering and understanding Dynamis. This means and proves that there are other Ancients who know as much about it as and BEFORE Hermes. Sorry, but them's the breaks.

[YianKutku]

Hermes's exact dialogue on the subject.

Most discoveries in history are, "Happy Accidents." Understanding comes later. This is the root of all Ancients discovering and understanding Dynamis. This means and proves that there are other Ancients who know as much about it as and BEFORE Hermes. Sorry, but them's the breaks.

No, the dialogue literally says it is a "happy accident". It says nothing about the former researcher then looking into the specifics of dynamis, or that they did anything other than create the flowers.

If we are operating entirely on what is said rather than what we think is implied, then there is no evidence that the former researcher was even aware of dynamis, or by what mechanism the flowers change colours.

[Vyrerus]

No, the dialogue literally says it is a "happy accident". It says nothing about the former researcher then looking into the specifics of dynamis, or that they did anything other than create the flowers.

If we are operating entirely on what is said rather than what we think is implied, then there is no evidence that the former researcher was even aware of Dynamis, or by what mechanism the flowers change colours.

Hermes:"And though its existence had long been theorized we had no proof until the flower's serendipitous creation."

This is the important line. While the flower was created on accident, its mechanisms proved a theory that had already been postulated. Like the Hannish theorize about it as Akasa, the Ancients first theorized about it as Dynamis, and the Elpis flowers validated their theory.

By the act of creating them, an understanding of Dynamis was gained. Hermes uses this line and the line prior to explain how they discovered it. The flowers are tangible, and are an accidental prototype for all Entelechies. By studying the accident that lead to their creation a method to manipulate Dynamis was gained.

While it is not a direct line, it is fact based on how more advanced Entelechies, namely Meteion, came to be created on purpose. Then, note the underlined, We, in Hermes' statement. He was not the only one researching the theory, and he was also not the one who achieved the accidental breakthrough.

Again. There are more Ancients than just Hermes who know and understand Dynamis. Explicitly. They just aren't named.

[YianKutku]

Hermes:"And though its existence had long been theorized we had no proof until the flower's serendipitous creation."

This is the important line. While the flower was created on accident, its mechanisms proved a theory that had already been postulated. Like the Hannish theorize about it as Akasa, the Ancients first theorized about it as Dynamis, and the Elpis flowers validated their theory.

By the act of creating them, an understanding of Dynamis was gained. Hermes uses this line and the line prior to explain how they discovered it. The flowers are tangible, and are an accidental prototype for all Entelechies. By studying the accident that lead to their creation a method to manipulate Dynamis was gained.

While it is not a direct line, it is fact based on how more advanced Entelechies, namely Meteion, came to be created on purpose. Then, note the underlined, We, in Hermes' statement. He was not the only one researching the theory, and he was also not the one who achieved the accidental breakthrough.

Again. There are more Ancients than just Hermes who know and understand Dynamis. Explicitly. They just aren't named.

And neither Emet-Selch nor Hythlodaeus had ever heard of dynamis, nor entelechies. Venat had heard of it, but also admits that she knows very little about it apart from the basic concept.

Hythlodaeus assumes that the Elpis flower and the concept of dynamis had been submitted to the bureau before he joined it, but given he still had never heard of it, that means either Hythlodaeus was mistaken (and the Elpis flower was never submitted at all), or the bureau is so disorganized that such a "breakthrough" discovery was left to languish in obscurity. (My suspicion is that when dynamis was first observed, it was considered a trivial and unimportant matter, since according to the game literally no other person other than Hermes had ever managed to send a negative emotion to the Elpis flowers, until we came along. So the only colour changes noted were the different types of happiness, and any negative emotions were considered outliers and dismissed.)

Thus, the net effect is no matter how many other Ancients knew about dynamis, they were evidently forgotten, and so there is no way to contact them anyway. Which is the same result as no other Ancients knowing about dynamis that the group (Emet-Selch, Hythlodaeus, Venat) can consult about it other than Hermes. For the purposes of narrative, "only Hermes knows about dynamis" is true if the other people who know and understand dynamis (ie enough to create entelechies and influence dynamis) are all unavailable.

[Vyrerus]

And

Given that the Bureau of the Architect is constantly dealing with new creations, it's not unreasonable to think that older creations would be left unexamined by newcomers due to time constraints. It's not like a bureaucrat who signs on at a large depot or storehouse is going to be able to suddenly be able to account for everything that's ever been stored on the shelves there. They're too busy signing in triplicate the 800 concepts for new sharks and what not.

Through the course of this questline we also learn that the Convocation members are all specialists in different fields, so it's no surprise that an Emet-selch specialist doesn't know about a mysterious energy that almost no one has the means or desire to manipulate. Though it is a narrative surprise because he's a big deal to us, but it's ultimately an emotional conflation.

As for there being no way to contact the others who know about Dynamis... it's an idea that has no strength to stand under scrutiny. Elpis is a facility with rules and records. The Flower was created there, recorded there, and researched there. The names of the researchers would be in their records. The data on the flower would also be in their records. This takes place in the same expansion where our very scholarly compatriots have zero qualms about searching through a library containing more books than we can conceptualize, so Venat and our Ancient party shouldn't have qualms about attempting the same. The reality is that the narrative has to blinker itself and try to get us to pretend and believe with it that Hermes is all there is, so that the situation forced by the time loop appears even more inescapable. So it's, "For narrative purposes, we can't go into actual detail about the research methods, researchers, or specifics about Dynamis and its discovery. For narrative purposes we have to keep it vague, or this narrative comes apart at the seams." It's a weakness they could have easily dodged this by just having the lines from Hermes state that it's his personal discovery and the flower is his creation and he has yet to submit it to the bureau. Or something like that. Or that all his fellow Dynamis researchers gave themselves back to the star.

But the narrative didn't do that. It told us that there were other Dynamis researchers, but then didn't name them, and airplane spoon fed us lines about, "Only Hermes."

[EaraGrace]

1. Venat didn't give Ancient society a chance to answer the song of oblivion, because she didn't reveal it to them. She kept to vague platitudes, and then killed her entire race, after they'd put a bulwark in place to save and protect all life on Etheirys.

2. Wrong! The former researcher who created the Elpis flowers understood Dynamis to an extent. Meteion even refers to them as entelechies. Hermes implies that there are yet still other entelechies, but Meteion is, "The first possessed of free will." He is also 100% candid an open about why he created Meteion when asked why by Emet-selch, though he does not delve into details at the time.

1. You are leaving out two cutscenes worth of context, both of which directly contradict this point. She approached both the Convocation and her fellow Amaurotines to convince them to face the song of oblivion. This is despite what many people here believe, that Her intent was always to begin the Sundering, which would make Her actions nonsensical. No, She did try to convince others to take a different path, and She was unable. Both in the cutscene in Anyder and in the cutscene following our departure from Elpis, we see Her arguments rejected in favor of placing faith in Zodiark, and in the belief that the world before the Final Days could be returned to, one that they believed would be without sorrow and suffering. That is clearly not an answer. And thus, to prevent mankind from being forever at the mercy of an all powerful deity that could solve whatever strife or struggle they faced, She sundered the world and Him.

2. "To an extent" is carrying this line of logic, and I'll be frank not very far. The Elpis flower, as was stated in the cutscene you posted, was an accident. The underlying mechanisms that govern Dynamis were not understood by its creator as far as we know. As it stands, one, and only one, person has shown understanding of how to manipulate and utilize Dynamis, as well as create Entelechies with wills of their own, that being Hermes. And he only did so by his own admission out of necessity to create a being that could traverse the great expanse. There is no evidence that beyond the flower and the Meteions, entelechies can be found or even existed. The head of the Bureau of Concepts and a member of the Convocation needed to be explained the concept as well as the very idea of Entelechies, and there are no existing species with the ability to manipulate Dynamis. The only ones known are the Elpis flower and Meteion.

In the words of Hermes

'Tis a truly esoteric thing, known to but a select few scholars.

And even then, to know of something is one thing, its another to understand it. Venat was in the former herself when we meet Her in Elpis.

[Vyrerus]

1. You are leaving out

1. She did not reveal the truth about Meteion to the Ancients. She expected them to give up Zodiark with no knowledge that Meteion was the cause that necessitated his existence in the first place. She asked them to give up a tangible god that had saved and restored the world. With no proper incentive.

2. The only ones shown are Meteion and the Elpis flower. In the same breath Hermes alludes to other, "ordinary" entelechies by telling Meteion that she is no ordinary entelechy. The narrative suffers from telling us too much, and from hinting at other areas and people it does not/will not show. It really wouldn't have been much of a hurdle for them to not undercut their own story by not doing that. It hurts to see.

[EaraGrace]

1. She did not reveal the truth about Meteion to the Ancients. She expected them to give up Zodiark with no knowledge that Meteion was the cause that necessitated his existence in the first place. She asked them to give up a tangible god that had saved and restored the world. With no proper incentive.

2. The only ones shown are Meteion and the Elpis flower. In the same breath Hermes alludes to other, "ordinary" entelechies by telling Meteion that she is no ordinary entelechy. The narrative suffers from telling us too much, and from hinting at other areas and people it does not/will not show. It really wouldn't have been much of a hurdle for them to not undercut their own story by not doing that. It hurts to see.

1. I don't believe She asked that however. She asked for them not to sacrifice new lives to regain old ones, and to accept suffering as a constant companion as a part of how life is, but no where did She ask them to give up Zodiark. Only when it was clear they did not intend to remember the Final Days and its impact, did She move to sunder him. In a hypothetical where they didn't endeavour to bring back all of those they lost by sacrificing more, I do not believe She would have Sundered the world in the way she did.

2. I mean sure, they did not explicitly tell us no other Entelechies exist, but based on what we have been told their are a few facts we can discern.

1. No Entelechies but Meteion exist with a will of their own
2. Hytholodaeus knows of no submitted concept for an Entelechy and all but a handful of scholars know of Dynamis
3. No Entelechies have survived except for Meteion and the Elpis flower
4. The Elpis flower was an accident, had no practical applications, and Dynamis as a whole is an energy the Ancients cannot manipulate

I think its safe to assume from these facts that Hermes is one of a kind in regards to his work on Dyanmis, as well the only one with a known interest in exploring it.