Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

[Havenchild]

This would assume however, that basically we changed nothing by going back to the past, and Venat would have done everything exactly the same without her knowledge of the things to come, or even the main reason behind the Final Days. While possible, I personally dislike this explanation. Too many decisions leading to the same outcomes via different reasons.

If nothing else, her secrecy and vague guidance was attributed directly to the fact that she did not want to risk changing the events that lead to us going back in time and talking to her.

There is no reason for us to assume that she knows of the Final Days, because of us coming from the future. The Final Days were fated to happen. Our presence in Elpis literally means zero for causing the Final Days in the past for example because Meteion would have given the same report to Hermes, and the Meteion sisters were already released before we arrived. So the Final Days in the past, are not caused or prevented by our presence, but for us to exist in *sundered form* does mean that even in a timeline where we are unable to go to the past, Venat still determined that at the very least this was the only option. It's kinda proven in her dialog in Elpis when she first hears the news, and comes to the same conclusion that she would have did this if she felt there was no other way.

There's also the whole point of the Forum's "Goal" and the Lopporits. The initial plan was NOT WoL saving the star but for mankind to flee it. She didn't even plan the journey to Meteion. This was evidenced in the design of the moon ship which was confirmed to not be able to make the journey to the edge of the universe by itself.
The journey to the past is what CREATES the second option to begin with. While shoddy, nothing particularly breaks even within the closed loop of time that leads to the ultimate conclusion.

The only rules of time travel that existed persay was what Elidibus told us:

"You cannot change events of the past, the future you must return to exists because of the Final Days" -> This future however can be manufacturered and be interpreted differently ultimately. This is the exact same logic that was used in Steins;Gate anime.

It's time travel shenanigans for sure, but it definitely leaves enough room to make a possibility that doesn't break anything.

[Evergrey]

This would assume however, that basically we changed nothing by going back to the past, and Venat would have done everything exactly the same without her knowledge of the things to come, or even the main reason behind the Final Days. While possible, I personally dislike this explanation. Too many decisions leading to the same outcomes via different reasons.

If nothing else, her secrecy and vague guidance was attributed directly to the fact that she did not want to risk changing the events that lead to us going back in time and talking to her.

The thing is, her decisions weren't based because she would've done so even if we didn't time travel, she did it because we did time travel.
Time travel works that it has already happened before you even time travel, it's un avoidable.
There was never a "present" when she didn't know of what to come.

[Hysorn]

The thing is, her decisions weren't based because she would've done so even if we didn't time travel, she did it because we did time travel.
Time travel works that it has already happened before you even time travel, it's un avoidable.
There was never a "present" when she didn't know of what to come.

AKA we are a causal loop paradox.

[Evergrey]

We are pretty much the reason to the Sundering.
As Venat said herself when the WoL talked about the future that she can't think of a reason as to why her future self would become Hydaelyn.
Perhaps she too would've supported the birth of Zodiark and there would never be a sundering if she didn't know.

[Divinemights]

People just mad I’m critiquing their favorite games’ story and saying I’m an idiot that doesn’t understand time travel. The issue was graha timeline not adding up. the overall theme of meteion existence is not hard to understand .
Just too much filler in the story , playing dress up with loporrits while radz at han is having an apocalypse .

Not everyone is going to like same book.
The biggest mistake you have done is your thread topic deeply dis-respect others that deeply enjoy the Endwalker story.
You start your thread with riding on high horse in mind, but found yourself charge blindly into a group that is not your target audience
Got hammered down from your high horse and stomp over and raged.

It is fine that you don't like a story but start with "was a great mess" only tells me you comes with an ill intention.
For example, I don't like Harry Potter and stop watching its movie after 3rd one but I will not be dumb enough to post on their forum saying "Harry Potter was a mess".
If you want discussion about some story node you don't agree with, it is fine, but your original statement was very problematic
The other thread I Hate it is more reasonable because that OP is expressing how he feels instead and much better job than you have done

[ArkenaeuxBelmont]

The way I imagined it, to ease my brain of the whole G'raha timeline issue, was this:

It didn't matter. We changed absolutely nothing by going back in time, at all, other than giving us first-hand account knowledge of everything, to which Venat could've told us when we went to the Mothercrystal anyway. It's the only way to make sense of everything. Our trip back meant absolutely nothing in the long run, changed nothing.

It's the only way G'raha's original timeline could've existed in the first place. There, we wouldn't have had the Tower and Elidubus to go back in time. Plus, we sort of croaked in that timeline. There though, the Unsundered weren't defeated and thus Fandaniel couldn't do Fandaniel things so we never triggered the Final Days. Zodiark's still kicking there.

So that means the events in the past had to occur in both timelines, if we were present or not.

Venat/Emet/Hytho still all went into Ktisis because Meteion went wacko-baskets, Hermes still activated the memory wipe. Venat still tagged Meteion. Blah blah blah.

In the first instance, her actions were the result of her own knowledge and what she thought best.
In the second instance where we were present, she still made the same choices but believed it was because she knew the future and had to keep it the same.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that the entire purpose of our trip wasn't to change anything at all, but to make us more deeply understand the Ancient's duty and how seriously they took it. We always thought they were tempered, but they really weren't. Not like how we know tempering. Emet, Laha and Elidibus did everything they did because they truly believed it was for the best.

By us going back and seeing their convinction, and Emet seeing ours, makes it all the more impactful when he and Hytho stand at our side with their memories back after being returned to the Aetherial Sea. It makes Emet's answer to Meteion all the better.

So TLDR: The time travel part, in terms of events, meant absolutely nothing. Changed nothing, did nothing, etc. Elidibus was right. Change nothing because our future still needs to be here to return to.

It was more about giving us a perspective and understanding of the Ancients.

[Lersayil]

Yeah, it basically comes down to two options:

-either we don't have the whole picture, and there is some unknown element to the story that would explain Grahas timeline not going bonkers when the WoL died
-or indeed nothing can be changed via time travel as everything is predetermined (including branching timelines), even if some things would suggest otherwise

I intensely hate the second option, and the only upside to it is that fate/god/predetermination is a classic jrpg villain, one I wouldn't mind if it showed up just to get punched in the face.

[Divinemights]

Time travel is a recurring motif in the Final Fantasy series, which focuses on carrying people through time and possibly allowing them to change their fate.
In the Shadowbringer, G’raha is able to stop 8th calamity by sending himself and the Crystal Tower to the First; therefore resulting him able to avoid the paradox (There was no Crystal Tower on the First).
G’raha’s involvement has created three ripple effect that avert the catastrophe.
The absence of the Scions from the Source because of his summon resulting a standstill between Erozea and the empire and delaying the Black Rose depolyment.
Tataru Taru was forced to call up Estinien resulting him into meeting Gauis to join forces in sabotaging Black Rose facilities and further delaying the deployment.
As WoL got pulled to the First and prevent the Rejoining of the First, this also further weapon Black Rose’s effect.
Entire timeline has been altered, therefore 8th calamity has been avoided

Our travel to Eplis however is different because we did not alter anything and we are basically replaced original seat of Azem’s involvement in the creation of Hydaelyn and Zodiark.
Since the beginning there are 6 players involved in Ktisis: Meteion, Emet-Selch, Azem, Hermes, Hythlodaeus, and Venat and only Azem and Venat walk out of Ktisis with their memory intact.
This is further support by why Azem defected the Convocation and also refused to join Venat’s Hydaelyn summoning.
WoL is merely replaced Azem in entire event.
If WoL didn't show up, Azem will show up on Eplis either way. (even WoL got killed at 8th Calamity)
There is no paradox and nothing was altered.

[Velnora]

Time travel is a recurring motif in the Final Fantasy series, which focuses on carrying people through time and possibly allowing them to change their fate.
In the Shadowbringer, G’raha is able to stop 8th calamity by sending himself and the Crystal Tower to the First; therefore resulting him able to avoid the paradox (There was no Crystal Tower on the First).
G’raha’s involvement has created three ripple effect that avert the catastrophe.
The absence of the Scions from the Source because of his summon resulting a standstill between Erozea and the empire and delaying the Black Rose depolyment.
Tataru Taru was forced to call up Estinien resulting him into meeting Gauis to join forces in sabotaging Black Rose facilities and further delaying the deployment.
As WoL got pulled to the First and prevent the Rejoining of the First, this also further weapon Black Rose’s effect.
Entire timeline has been altered, therefore 8th calamity has been avoided

Our travel to Eplis however is different because we did not alter anything and we are basically replaced original seat of Azem’s involvement in the creation of Hydaelyn and Zodiark.
Since the beginning there are 6 players involved in Ktisis: Meteion, Emet-Selch, Azem, Hermes, Hythlodaeus, and Venat and only Azem and Venat walk out of Ktisis with their memory intact.
This is further support by why Azem defected the Convocation and also refused to join Venat’s Hydaelyn summoning.
WoL is merely replaced Azem in entire event.
If WoL didn't show up, Azem will show up on Eplis either way. (even WoL got killed at 8th Calamity)
There is no paradox and nothing was altered.

And every time, said motif is terrible. Also, Graha'Tia did not time travel. Passage of time flowing differently =/= time travel.

[Divinemights]

And every time, said motif is terrible. Also, Graha'Tia did not time travel. Passage of time flowing differently =/= time travel.

It is time treaveling.
He specifically used Cid's Tyacoon, an artificial recreation of Alexander that combines its time-manipulation abilities with Omega's dimension-hopping capabilities.
By the definition of both space and time got altered, yes he time traveled but end up on First that is all.