Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

[Palladiamors]

Once again i dont know where people are getting this idea they created a bunch of new people and races just to sacrifice all of them. From what Hythlodaeus tells us, they were going to use a PORTION of the new life to bring back their loved ones, not all of it. Also should be an important distinction between Ancients and Ascians as they are technically two different things. Pesronally though i dont regard the ascians as just being clear cut villains. They were doing what they could to bring back the star to the way it once was, to a stable world. The devs had elaborated awhile back that the sundering had actually made the world unstable and it was a very bad and dangerous thing but this was never elaborated on sadly.

Oh I'm SORRY Mr. Pedantic, they were only going to sacrifice a BUNCH of people instead of all of them. And then they went around ending ENTIRE WORLDS. Point still stands, they were villains, period.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Oh I'm SORRY Mr. Pedantic, they were only going to sacrifice a BUNCH of people instead of all of them. And then they went around ending ENTIRE WORLDS. Point still stands, they were villains, period.

It’s not about being pedantic, it’s the case that someone mentioned earlier of people getting their own headcanon mixed in with actual lore which is kind of a big detriment for people who are trying to debate and argue the actual lore of the game. Let’s not forget the devs themselves have stated the ascians aren’t outright villains and that everyone in the story is pretty morally grey. The entire story up to EW has been a battle of perspectives. Yes they went around ending entire worlds AFTER the sundering occurred. We were originally talking about before any of that happened in which people in this thread have been vocalizing that they were mass sacrificing and Zodiark was forcing them to give him more and more aether when there’s nothing that supports that. I prefer to stick to specifics and facts than headcanon personally but you’re allowed to do what you wish, just make sure you try and support your argument with sources, like i asked someone to do earlier when they claimed zodiark was asking for more aether.

[Lauront]

Oh I'm SORRY Mr. Pedantic, they were only going to sacrifice a BUNCH of people instead of all of them. And then they went around ending ENTIRE WORLDS. Point still stands, they were villains, period.

And I suppose we're meant to just ignore the individual who shattered the world into 14 fragments without much forewarning and their role in it all? Also, again, note that what they were going to sacrifice has never been specified. It may well have been arcane creations on the order of the familiars they created in Elpis, which can gain souls. Those may in some cases resemble the sundered life forms to some degree but they would not be anything like what the ancients recognised as people.

I think they ended up retconning some of the Anyder stuff. The scene just after that one of them asks why Venat has to be the heart, that they need her as their leader and they'll miss her. This makes no sense given the context of the sundering unless we assume that the people aiding Venat were not aware that was her intention, which makes her character even worse. Plus, the Hydaelyn primal is more akin to Ysayle as Shiva than Elidibus as Zodiark, so even the heart comment seems odd knowing what we know now.

Anyway, as for the "perfect" worlds, I know it's asking a lot for realism in a fantasy setting video game, but the will to live is the strongest instinct we know of in living creatures. The idea that one planet would collectively decide to die beggared belief let alone this being any sort of common occurrence throughout the universe. Plus, "perfection" as studied in other creatures, like rats, doesn't result in that. Typically what happens is after you've removed the need to worry about food, shelter, and predators, the animals become bored. Lacking purpose, they start turning on each other and in some cases drive themselves to extinction. I don't recall a world like that. The closest would've been the one that engaged in a civil war, but "perfection" would have led to a more chaotic situation. The Ra-la planet was also fine before Metetion arrived, it's stated in the notes in the Dead Ends that her arrival and incessant questioning spurred their existential crisis.

None of this even matters though, since there was no stopping the Final Days it would've served to shake up whatever "perfect" (subjective!) world the Ancients had and forced them to collectively face a common threat, which likely would've made them stronger individually and as a whole. The Ancients loved their star and they were intelligent beings, they would've come together and done whatever it took to save it (and did with Zodiark), so to say that they were incapable of handling a crisis or deal with suffering is simply false. Ultimately, they weren't given a chance to prove themselves. It's another reason I hate that post-Elpis montage, it came across as incredibly judgmental and tone deaf.

It was, and without her giving a proper account of why she believed what she did, it was unlikely she'd be able to convince them.

[Theodric]

Oh I'm SORRY Mr. Pedantic, they were only going to sacrifice a BUNCH of people instead of all of them. And then they went around ending ENTIRE WORLDS. Point still stands, they were villains, period.

Perhaps Yoshi-P's own take on the situation would provide further context and clairity, then. The most relevant point being in bold:

Q: With each new expansion new themes are introduced and are focused on. How does the team decide on which themes to focus on with each new expansion?

Naoki Yoshida: The major themes for the expansion would be first conveyed from me as the game’s director to the development team. Although it is somewhat difficult to describe my personal decision-making process it could be summarised as [requiring a sense of] surprise and fun. This contains a dual meaning in that I assess whether as developers ourselves we would encounter surprises while enjoying the production process, at the same time as considering whether the story of the expansion would be exciting and fun for the players. In the last expansion Shadowbringers, I had thought that players must have grown tired of being referred to as a Warrior of Light. I also came up with the idea of reversing the conventional notion of light equating to justice or something holy and darkness equating to evil or something bad to generate a sense of surprise.

The current state of global affairs is incredibly complex and simple two-dimensional theories of good/bad from ancient times can no longer quantify this world we live in. As such, a large factor [that contributed to the selection of these themes] is that I thought I could cultivate new values and a new sense of realisation within myself by changing perspective and carefully considering the other party’s arguments in regard to a given event. Half of the time these things are born from one’s intuition and flashes of inspiration. I guessed as much but it really is hard to explain. (laughs)

Source: https://www.impulsegamer.com/naoki-y...vs-lore-story/

Such was in regards to Shadowbringers, though it's very readily applicable to Endwalker as well. You're free to reduce the Ascians to mere 'villains' if you so wish, though given that they were simply working to restore their loved ones I daresay it's a bit more nuanced than that. Ultimately they were simply striving to reverse something that would never have happened in the first place.

Just as it makes sense for the Sundered to not necessarily want to roll over and die for the sake of the Unsundered, the opposite is true as well. Let's also not forget that the Scions themselves admitted that they would work towards the same goal if they, themselves, were in Emet-Selch's position.

[lezard21]

EW's story is all over the place and a narrative mess, and it becomes pretty obvious when you go to Radz-at-han. Suddenly this nation is the most important nation of the entire Planetos just because it's new.

Wards for tempering despite never having to deal with Primals and tempering before? Radz-at-han.
The first manifestation of the Final Days? Radz-at-han.
Best friends with Sharlayan? Radz-at-han.
Role quests? Radz-at-han.

Later, while doing the Ultima Thule series of quests, I queued for leveling roulette on my MNK. I got sent to Tower of Zot and had a moment of "...wait a second, this was THIS expansion!". The whole "tempering towers" part feels so disconnected from the later parts of the story. Not to mention Garlemald which I was very hyped to finally being able to visit and it ends up being such a wasted potential.

The whole section previous to Zodiark's defeat feels like it should have belonged to Post-ShB since it feels like a rushed setup to the (also rushed) 2nd part of the plot. Maybe if they had done that they would have had more time to develop Hermes' motivation and specially Meteion so as not to have her go from Incorruptible Pure Child to "MURDER DEATH KILL" emo mode.

It's amazing how despite being heavily criticized SB managed to tell 2 separate stories more coherently, and even more surprising coming off ShB which had improved on SBs shortcomings, EW felt like 2 steps backwards.

[Kaurhz]

My only criticism is that it felt far too short for the amount of holes they wanted to plug and the amount of information they wished to cover. I feel like they would have needed to extend it quite a bit more, to be honest. Not enough to warrant an entirely new expansion, but by still quite a bit.

[Raven2014]

Glad I wasn't alone in that. The entire Lopporrits arc just felt like serious comic relief annoyance to me. The freaking world is ending down there, people are dying, losing their families, homes and we're just playing dress up and giving our opinions on some freaking moon bunnies fashion designs. Wtf.

Oh you're not the only one for sure. I don't mind the arc itself but it was seriously out of place. We just killed Zodiac (the big bad we're been after years), trigger the Final Day ... then cute bunny happens.

Like ... I don't even understand how Yoshi or whoever in charge approved. The story is built up to an explosive point ... then they just killed off all tension. Whoever make the storyboard for EndWalker doesn't have the concept of "momentum". It's like they want each zone a self-contained story rather flowing from one to the next.

[HollowedDoll]

I see that there are still people larping about how they wouldn't sacrifice some chimpanzees/bonobos to bring back their loved ones and friends
pat yourself on the back for your moral superiority.

[Driavna]

What do you know, PvP at lore topics is hardcore. Not even BDO get this toxic :P

[Driavna]

Oh you're not the only one for sure. I don't mind the arc itself but it was seriously out of place. We just killed Zodiac (the big bad we're been after years), trigger the Final Day ... then cute bunny happens.

Like ... I don't even understand how Yoshi or whoever in charge approved. The story is built up to an explosive point ... then they just killed off all tension. Whoever make the storyboard for EndWalker doesn't have the concept of "momentum". It's like they want each zone a self-contained story rather flowing from one to the next.

WoL and others did not know when the Final Days will commence and trying to learn more about that topic by talking to lopporrits made sense. IMO, lasted more than was needed but still I get that they were trying to relax all that tension to then hit us again once we are back.

Did not work for me, I don't like those big changes in mood. However, knowing the most vocal part of the player base certain decisions make a lot of sense.