The GrubHub promo problems

[Yahallo]

update: spouse & I still have not received our emote codes for our 2 separate orders.

I've been thinking about accountability. How do you hold companies accountable when they exploit or con so many customers in a campaign like this?

Some ideas, for after the 2-week mark from Grubhub... A full-page crowd sourced ad run in major newspapers, like the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, LA Times, that basically says "Shame on you Grubhub & Square Enix. You told players that if they ordered $15 worth of food from Grubhub before fees between these dates, you would deliver an in-game item code. You did not do that. You screwed over hundreds/thousands of players.

Considering the number of people scammed by this, it actually would probably be easy to crowd-source.

Another idea. I'm going to assume that a lot of the players who were screwed over are college students, many of whom may live or commute to college campuses and who are part of various clubs/organizations/etc. College students could go around campus to bulletin boards, etc., posting flyers saying basically the same as above.

Another idea. Go to popular game reviewers on YouTube who cover Final Fantasy, particularly any that mentioned the pizza emote (e.g. Meoni), and flood the comments section, identifying yourself as one of the players conned by Grubhub & Square Enix.

Another idea. The next time Square Enix does a livestream event where there's commenting, e.g. on YouTube, flood the comments, referencing how you never received the pizza emote that you properly paid for by participating in the campaign.

Obviously these things require time, energy, and sustained anger. Is it worth it? IDK. Do I have it in myself? IDK. Part of me just wants to say screw it and walk away. But, I also know that's what Square Enix and Grubhub want. The thing is, guys, they really have the upper hand. We fell for their false promotion & they have our cash already in hand. Screwing over hundreds or thousands of players ... it's a drop in a bucket. Even if every single one of us never participated in another crossover campaign again, there will still be thousands of others who will (and potentially get screwed over, too). But as long as there is money to be made, what do they care?

I actually made a macro in game so that any time someone uses their pizza emote, I respond with a custom emote saying that I scowl, remembering how SE and Grubhub conned me with false advertising, and I reaffirm to myself my commitment to never take part in another crossover campaign for digital items again. I figure that at least this will warn other players who may not have heard about this rip-off and might make them think twice about participating in a future one. This may potentially be another way to hold Square Enix accountable for its end in this, particularly since they did not mention anywhere on the Lodestone that this was actually a raffle/lottery.

I kind of wonder what would happen if those hundreds/thousands of players filed a chargeback against Grubhub. I feel like with that amount of people even just threatening Grubhub with a chargeback would put a lot of pressure on them and make them at the very least refund entire orders. They have a lot more to lose if a large number of chargebacks were submitted against them for the same reason.

[SnowVix]

I kind of wonder what would happen if those hundreds/thousands of players filed a chargeback against Grubhub. I feel like with that amount of people even just threatening Grubhub with a chargeback would put a lot of pressure on them and make them at the very least refund entire orders. They have a lot more to lose if a large number of chargebacks were submitted against them for the same reason.

You would be committing fraud if you did this, because you received the item you paid for (the food).

[Yahallo]

You would be committing fraud if you did this, because you received the item you paid for (the food).

Nope, no fraud would be committed. If you were unsatisfied with the service, you are allowed to submit a chargeback as long you made a good faith attempt to resolve it with the merchant, in this case Grubhub. Grubhub failed to follow their own terms and conditions for the promotion, which stated the emote was first come first serve, which turned out to be false. Thus, you are to first try to resolve it through Grubhub's customer service. If their customer service was unable to come to a satisfying resolution, you are able to file a chargeback without any risk of committing fraud. This is especially true if the customer service responded in a manner that contradicted the terms and service.

For it to be considered fraud, the intent must be to commit fraud. In this case, there is no intent to commit fraud, but clear dissatisfaction with the service.

As long as there is reasonable doubt in whether the customer was satisfied with the service and the customer made a good faith attempt at resolving it with the merchant first, a chargeback will not be considered fraud.

[SnowVix]

Nope, no fraud would be committed. If you were unsatisfied with the service, you are allowed to submit a chargeback as long you made a good faith attempt to resolve it with the merchant, in this case Grubhub. Grubhub failed to follow their own terms and conditions for the promotion, which stated the emote was first come first serve, which turned out to be false. Thus, you are to first try to resolve it through Grubhub's customer service. If their customer service was unable to come to a satisfying resolution, you are able to file a chargeback without any risk of committing fraud. This is especially true if the customer service responded in a manner that contradicted the terms and service.

For it to be considered fraud, the intent must be to commit fraud. In this case, there is no intent to commit fraud, but clear dissatisfaction with the service.

As long as there is reasonable doubt in whether the customer was satisfied with the service and the customer made a good faith attempt at resolving it with the merchant first, a chargeback will not be considered fraud.

Go ahead and try that when GrubHub sends proof that you received what was paid for back to your bank and they slap you with a fee for instituting a false chargeback.

[Yahallo]

Go ahead and try that when GrubHub sends proof that you received what was paid for back to your bank and they slap you with a fee for instituting a false chargeback.

I can't try because I got the emote; however, I highly doubt that it would be classified as a false chargeback nor would you be charged any fee, even if you were to lose the dispute. This is the exact purpose for what a chargeback is for; when the merchant gave unsatisfactory service and is refusing to correct it. It doesn't matter if you received the food if the service was poor, in which case this is. They violated their own terms and conditions and, in some cases, gave false information through their customer service.

A false chargeback is when you initiate a chargeback with the intent to commit fraud. As long as you can prove that you did not receive satisfactory service, it cannot be considered a false chargeback. You give the reason for why you are initiating the chargeback and in this case it is related to the promo and how Grubhub failed to follow their own terms and conditions as advertised.

By your logic, even if the person delivering the food were to step on the food and spit on it, as long as you received the food, they would be able to deny you a refund and if you started a chargeback you would be hit with a false chargeback. This however, is not the case; if that happened, you would likely win the chargeback. While this situation is not as extreme, it is of the same principle. There are more reasons to chargeback than just not receiving items; a service not performing as expected is one of them.

From the way things are turning out, it is either this or take the L as it looks like SE won't do anything and Grubhub definitely won't do anything.

[Dogempire]

Go ahead and try that when GrubHub sends proof that you received what was paid for back to your bank and they slap you with a fee for instituting a false chargeback.

Honestly, don't even bother, it's useless.

I literally work dispute cases for a living and investigate claims like this person is posting and they think they know more, the terms and conditions are more than enough to deny a claim, not to mention that it's ridiculous the item in question is an emote, not an actual product that's been paid for and has a monetary value

[Yahallo]

They literally can't break their terms and conditions, have you actually tried reading them? Heck, has anyone who's considered submitting chargebacks tried reading them?

They have yet to change it. It still states the same initial terms and conditions of first come first serve on their website. Furthermore, it still wouldn't excuse them from giving unsatisfactory service which is enough of a reason for a chargeback if a good faith attempt at resolving the situation with the merchant (Grubhub) was made and the merchant failed to resolved it.

Honestly, don't even bother, it's useless.

I literally work dispute cases for a living and investigate claims like this person is posting and they think they know more, the terms and conditions are more than enough to deny a claim, not to mention that it's ridiculous the item in question is an emote, not an actual product that's been paid for and has a monetary value

You also stated that the first two sentences of the terms and condition would protect them, the one that stated that it was first come first serve, despite it literally contradicting them, multiple times even when people pointed it out. Rather fatal flaw to make don't you think? Also, you claimed that if the customer didn't pay a chargeback fee, that the bank was footing the bill, when generally it is the merchant that pays the chargeback fee.

The emote is literally the only reason why a number of people were ordering from grubhub to begin with. People were essentially deceived into ordering from Grubhub. If literal deception isn't a good enough reason, then chargebacks might as well not exist. Pretty sure deceptive advertisement counts as false advertisement as well. There are more reasons to chargeback than just not receiving items.

Furthermore, most of the time, people don't actually have to go through with the chargeback. Just the threat of a chargeback will likely work. If multiple people all respond to the Grubhub customer service that they are considering chargebacks, it would put plenty of pressure on Grubhub, likely resulting in refunds because it would likely cost Grubhub less to just refund than to deal with chargebacks.

You keep saying that SE has to do something about it and dealing with Grubhub will not resolve anything. However, SE most likely won't do anything about it so attempting to bring it up to them will just result in them telling you to bring it up with Grubhub, as others have attested. To come to any kind of resolution where you don't just take the L, you have to deal with Grubhub; there is no other way.

[Dogempire]

Nope, no fraud would be committed. If you were unsatisfied with the service, you are allowed to submit a chargeback as long you made a good faith attempt to resolve it with the merchant, in this case Grubhub. Grubhub failed to follow their own terms and conditions for the promotion, which stated the emote was first come first serve, which turned out to be false. Thus, you are to first try to resolve it through Grubhub's customer service. If their customer service was unable to come to a satisfying resolution, you are able to file a chargeback without any risk of committing fraud. This is especially true if the customer service responded in a manner that contradicted the terms and service.

For it to be considered fraud, the intent must be to commit fraud. In this case, there is no intent to commit fraud, but clear dissatisfaction with the service.

As long as there is reasonable doubt in whether the customer was satisfied with the service and the customer made a good faith attempt at resolving it with the merchant first, a chargeback will not be considered fraud.

They literally can't break their terms and conditions, have you actually tried reading them? Heck, has anyone who's considered submitting chargebacks tried reading them?

[ConcernedPerson]

I kind of wonder what would happen if those hundreds/thousands of players filed a chargeback against Grubhub. I feel like with that amount of people even just threatening Grubhub with a chargeback would put a lot of pressure on them and make them at the very least refund entire orders. They have a lot more to lose if a large number of chargebacks were submitted against them for the same reason.

I'm not really interested in joining the financial debates happening in this thread. Normally, a refund or chargeback would be a way of holding a company accountable. Many people are having success speaking with grubhub supervisors/managers and having their order refunded, so it does seem like that is an option. I am waiting the full two weeks listed in the promo. I may call and try to have it refunded after that, or I may just give up and move on. (Either way, I don't see myself taking part in a digital crossover campaign again.)

I am hesitant to do a chargeback. Goods were received (although they weren't very good, lol, and one wasn't even from a real restaurant, which is even shadier). The promotion itself does have the legal loophole at the end of it. I did read that before I took part in it. It's a standard legal loophole that you'll find in most campaigns of this nature. This is the first and only time I've seen and experienced someone using that loophole to screw over thousands. Technically, because of that loophole, none of us can sue Grubhub or Square Enix. It also makes the credit card chargeback risky, I think, because they can say to your CC that you took part in the campaign knowing that they could change it at any point during it. This is my personal take on it with my own financial knowledge. I'm not going to enter an ongoing debate about it.

I'm more interested in public accountability than I am about the financial side of things. I don't even want the emote anymore. It just symbolizes all of this now. Really, I just want SE to apologize either for their role in this or on behalf of how GH screwed us all over.

I am considering writing a letter directly to Yoshi P at the Japan SE headquarters via old fashioned mail. He has always seemed like such a genuine, kind guy, who is invested in the game and in the players. I'm curious if he actually knows about this situation unfolding here in the states. I have a feeling that if this had happened in Japan, SE would issue a swift rebuke against GH and work to fix it.

[Yahallo]

I'm not really interested in joining the financial debates happening in this thread. Normally, a refund or chargeback would be a way of holding a company accountable. Many people are having success speaking with grubhub supervisors/managers and having their order refunded, so it does seem like that is an option. I am waiting the full two weeks listed in the promo. I may call and try to have it refunded after that, or I may just give up and move on. (Either way, I don't see myself taking part in a digital crossover campaign again.)

I am hesitant to do a chargeback. Goods were received (although they weren't very good, lol, and one wasn't even from a real restaurant, which is even shadier). The promotion itself does have the legal loophole at the end of it. I did read that before I took part in it. It's a standard legal loophole that you'll find in most campaigns of this nature. This is the first and only time I've seen and experienced someone using that loophole to screw over thousands. Technically, because of that loophole, none of us can sue Grubhub or Square Enix. It also makes the credit card chargeback risky, I think, because they can say to your CC that you took part in the campaign knowing that they could change it at any point during it. This is my personal take on it with my own financial knowledge. I'm not going to enter an ongoing debate about it.

I'm more interested in public accountability than I am about the financial side of things. I don't even want the emote anymore. It just symbolizes all of this now. Really, I just want SE to apologize either for their role in this or on behalf of how GH screwed us all over.

I am considering writing a letter directly to Yoshi P at the Japan SE headquarters via old fashioned mail. He has always seemed like such a genuine, kind guy, who is invested in the game and in the players. I'm curious if he actually knows about this situation unfolding here in the states. I have a feeling that if this had happened in Japan, SE would issue a swift rebuke against GH and work to fix it.

There are more reasons than goods not being received for a chargeback. A service not being performed as expected is another reason for a chargeback. In this case, they essentially committed false/deceptive advertisement, which I am pretty sure would be a legitimate reason, even with that last clause in the terms and conditions. If the only reason in which you could submit a chargeback was when you didn't receive the products, then they could go as far as step on your food before giving it to you and still be protected, but no way that is the case. Proper service is as important as receiving the products you paid for.

However, I would attempt to get a refund first, attempt to get ahold of a manager if an attempt with a lower level rep fails, then failing that say that you are considering a chargeback, then finally if all else fails, submit the chargeback. Generally, you wouldn't even have to go past the threat of a chargeback.

As for how much Yoshi P knows, I honestly think he is more worried and focused on the servers at the moment, which is understandable. He probably has heard of it, but he likely has other issues higher on his priority list and the issue is likely more known within whatever team handles NA marketing.