Dark Knight Megathread

[Bhearil]

Then first fill that space so to the brim that there is no room for that trait, or suggest its direct replacement, rather than starting with its removal. Starting with the removal is all drama and no pragmatism.

Yes, the trait needs to be stronger in order not to be a slap to the face, but the fact that so few Unmends are cast are specifically what allows for such a trait to be strong, if we were given that improved version (e.g. a full reset that still wouldn't be worth using rotationally, except as perhaps as a window ender if you knew you'd get no fewer Bloodspillers or Souleaters into the phase regardless, and therefore acts only as a QoL capacity in that you'd always be able to return quickly to the fight).

Are we now devs? No, thats not our job, but since we are the (paying, mind you) customers we can say "this tea tastes like shit" and we dont have to go to the kitchen to teach them to brew tea properly. And removing that trait doesnt mean having 1 trait less, but having anything else that could be far more useful and engaging than the trait plus the 2 for 1 trait of Simulacrum that would have freed an extra trait for ANYTHING. DRK is a hot mess of issues but fixing at least some would have aleviated partially the problems (Living Dead is a big slap in the face moreso when Superbolide got buffed to 10 seconds now)

In any case there were dozens of great suggestions and feedback in the forums and look how much they take us in consideration, heck even japanese DRK players are pissed and dissapointed with the Endwalker DRK aditions. No wonder job devs like dps and hate tanks and healers. They really need more staff on the jobs instead the few current devs (2 or 4 for ALL the jobs dont remember the number now)

[Shurrikhan]

Are we now devs? No, thats not our job, but since we are the (paying, mind you) customers we can say "this tea tastes like shit" and we dont have to go to the kitchen to teach them to brew tea properly. And removing doesnt mean having 1 trait less.

But throwing out the tea isn't saying "the tea tastes like shit" so much as, very simply, "We don't want (this/your) tea."

Keep in mind the context here: Losing A has not necessitated a replacement, B, since HW, the last time every job had at least some addition every 2 levels. (And if there's a job that's going to trade something for nothing, it's DRK, after all.)

It could warrant a replacement, but in that case this deserves some further note to what ought to replace it or would be appreciated as a replacement. Or, mightn't we just, quite plainly say "replace" instead of "get rid of"? Sure, it lacks (rightly deserved, admittedly) vengeful drama, but shouldn't getting what we want be larger goal? (And we've already seen where raw drama alone, for all its rhetorical effect, takes us in terms of design.)

In any case there were dozens of great suggestions and feedback in the forums and look how much they take us in consideration, heck even japanese DRK players are pissed and dissapointed with the Endwalker DRK aditions

I've never argued otherwise. Actually good suggestions have been made and should be paid more attention to.

I'm just, in turn, disappointed by the "Remove X" posts that pass themselves off as practical suggestions or feedback when the skill or trait in question is neither outright negative nor is, so far as any dev communication could possibly imply, taking the place of anything else. It's just a smaller-scale "Delete DRK!" -- aimed more at drama than product. Is it really so hard to ask that X be replaced (e.g., with something along particular agreed-upon criteria) than just removed?

[Bhearil]

[QUOTE=Shurrikhan;5685887]

Are we now devs? No, thats not our job, but since we are the (paying, mind you) customers we can say "this tea tastes like shit" and we dont have to go to the kitchen to teach them to brew tea properly. And removing doesnt mean having 1 trait less, but virtually almost anything is better than that trait plus the 2 for 1 trait of Simulacrum that would have freed an extra trait for ANYTHING
But throwing out the tea isn't saying "the tea tastes like shit" so much as, very simply, "We don't want (this/your) tea." Keep in mind the context: Losing A hasn't necessitated a replacement, B, since HW, the last time every job had at least some addition every 2 levels. (And if there's a job that's going to trade something for nothing, it's DRK, after all.)


I've never argued otherwise. Actually good suggestions have been made and should be paid more attention to.

I'm just, in turn, disappointed by the "Remove X" posts that pass themselves off as practical suggestions or feedback when the skill or trait in question is neither outright negative nor is, so far as any dev communication could possibly imply, taking the place of anything else. It's just a smaller-scale "Delete DRK!"

Fine ill bite: "Improved Abyssal Drain" Abyssal Drain CD reduces by 5 seconds each time you use Souleater combo and Stalwart Soul combo, using Souleater combo also increases healing potency of Abbysal Drain by 30%, last for 10 seconds" and there you have a far better trait that took me a few seconds to think of. Its not like DRK is overflowing with hp regen.

And considering how things are developing i can foresee DRK being the least popular tank, followed by WAR then GNB and then PLD. SE is literally deleting DRK themselves they dont need our help to do so. Even if people like ShB DRK I really really doubt they will enjoy it for 4 full years considering the aditions barely change anything of DRK ShB gameplay

[WhyAmIHere]

So... What is DRK's big thing that they do that sets them apart?

Initial guess would be "TBN!" But a big mitigation isn't enough when that's all there is to the kit. It's big beefy shielding sure, but it's also the only tank mitigation skill with a drawback, which sucks IMO.
Secondary thought: "Living Shadow!" Yeah sure, no other tank gets to summon a pet, but... it's just a glorified DoT at the end of the day. There's no interaction with it, and up til the what, 5.4 or 5.5 change, it didn't even generate enmity(???). Coming in EW is just going to be an animation change so that Esteem can use the level 90 ability Shadowbringer (Please dear god the naming is so bad it's not even funny nor cool. Dark Wave woulda been nicer IMO), which is just another way to phrase "the potency of your DoT is increased," akin to Bio becoming Bio 2, or Biolysis.
"Delirium!" It's Inner Release.
"Blood Weapon!" It's Infuriate with a drawback.

4 abilities in DRK's kit that could be used as a focal point for how DRK should be built around. MCH's Automaton Queen is another variant of Living Shadow, but MCH also plays much to similarly to how DRK does now: spam your 1-2-3 combo, spam 1 move for a period of time, then summon a DoT pet that has no interaction with the player's input beyond summoning.

GNB and PLD both have 2 actual DoT abilities that aren't painted over by a pet. WAR's lost Fracture long ago. I'd say enough people that remember it have been asking since Stormblood for Scourge to return.

There's enough there for the dev team to build a proper Dark Knight, as a tank, with a unique identity, that is fun to play and rewarding for playing well. I just wish they took the time to actually work on DRK. Maybe come 5.1 or 5.2 if enough players stop playing it in high-end content we might finally see some improvements.

[ItMe]

Usually you use very few Unmends after the battle started and you can keep a charge stack since tanks get 2. Its a garbage passive, to say that it is extremely situational at best while being useless at worst means that its a waste of passive, same as improved Simulacrum wasting 2 passives instead of getting alll the effects on the last one and giving something useful with the first. Your reasoning is the very same as Monks Fist of Earth "Bu-but is a 10% mitigation is useful for aoes! Dont axe it!!" when I could count with one hand how many times it was useful from 2.0 to 5.4 and still have spare fingers

All tanks have evolved more or less on this expansion, but DRK looks like they got only 5 extra levels considering how garbastic the aditions are, even Warrior is on better state and their aditions were "meh" compared to GNB and specially PLD

Sooo... it's because a button is given a situational buff... we should axe the buff?
I don't follow that logic.
If it isn't good enough then we should ask for it to be tweaked and further improved.

Maybe increase the cooldown reduction on Plunge.
Maybe buff your next Plunge.
Etc.

But if DRK's additions are "meh," as you put it, we should be asking for more. Not asking for things to be removed.
You've even called it "a garbage passive," but not because it is a bad skill but because it isn't good enough. Because it is "useless at worst."
It's not like this situational tech is even coming with button bloat like what happened with Monk.

I really don't understand this attitude.

[Bhearil]

So... What is DRK's big thing that they do that sets them apart?

Initial guess would be "TBN!" But a big mitigation isn't enough when that's all there is to the kit. It's big beefy shielding sure, but it's also the only tank mitigation skill with a drawback, which sucks IMO.
Secondary thought: "Living Shadow!" Yeah sure, no other tank gets to summon a pet, but... it's just a glorified DoT at the end of the day. There's no interaction with it, and up til the what, 5.4 or 5.5 change, it didn't even generate enmity(???). Coming in EW is just going to be an animation change so that Esteem can use the level 90 ability Shadowbringer (Please dear god the naming is so bad it's not even funny nor cool. Dark Wave woulda been nicer IMO), which is just another way to phrase "the potency of your DoT is increased," akin to Bio becoming Bio 2, or Biolysis.
"Delirium!" It's Inner Release.
"Blood Weapon!" It's Infuriate with a drawback.

4 abilities in DRK's kit that could be used as a focal point for how DRK should be built around. MCH's Automaton Queen is another variant of Living Shadow, but MCH also plays much to similarly to how DRK does now: spam your 1-2-3 combo, spam 1 move for a period of time, then summon a DoT pet that has no interaction with the player's input beyond summoning.

GNB and PLD both have 2 actual DoT abilities that aren't painted over by a pet. WAR's lost Fracture long ago. I'd say enough people that remember it have been asking since Stormblood for Scourge to return.

There's enough there for the dev team to build a proper Dark Knight, as a tank, with a unique identity, that is fun to play and rewarding for playing well. I just wish they took the time to actually work on DRK. Maybe come 5.1 or 5.2 if enough players stop playing it in high-end content we might finally see some improvements.

Sadly considering their previous actions even if DRK population sinks like a rock at most they will give some small adjustements as band aids and "look forward for the next expansion". On ShB we had Monk on that very situation and Im still crossing fingers they fix some issues they presented on their rework before Endwalker arrives, because STILL have crap like Anatman or a disjointed burst window that forces to create 21 seconds countdown so they can align to almost everyone else from the start or lose every 2 min buff window

[Shin96]

I mean fine, some people will like this job in 6.0, probably those with lower standards though.

It's like the story with the emperor's new clothes. Everyone is pretending to see value in what we currently have, as opposed to what this job actually is; a heap of trashfire with no actual synergy and lost potential. Are you happy getting enhanced Unmend and a new skill called "Shadowbringer", which by animation alone is a knock-off of FoS? Are you happy using Salted Earth and popping some bubbles out of the ground? Again, re-used animation from Dark Missionary. Take a look at any other tank. All of them are more engaging unironically, despite DRK having been so in the past to the contrary of what we have now. These developers funnily enough, should be prohibited from having any access to this job given the baffling approach of removing every interesting action, without repurposing it. Giving us shit for 2 years we're stuck with, yet again. How more disrespectful can you get. Imagine they did this with any other job that has a loyal standing fanbase around it.

The worst thing DRK is facing basically points towards their history. I feel had this job been introduced in the way it is in 5.0, no one would've complained about this job or the lack of identity. You put it in comparison with 3.0? It's the equivalent of a dung pie with a cherry on top. It's like a good middle finger you put in your butt first, to illustrate your distaste for anyone that enjoyed its older design more. Again, it's salt to injury.

Should anyone run their mouths like a damsel in distress; your job could be next. And then what you say. Oh, are you happy other people enjoy it? Don't give me that crap. The worst things come from ignorance and a lack of apprecation, precisely the course of actions the developers have taken. Can't have nice things when someone likes to patronize part of the playerbase with a shitty rework.

[Shin96]

Sooo... it's because a button is given a situational buff... we should axe the buff?
I don't follow that logic.
If it isn't good enough then we should ask for it to be tweaked and further improved.

Maybe increase the cooldown reduction on Plunge.
Maybe buff your next Plunge.
Etc.

But if DRK's additions are "meh," as you put it, we should be asking for more. Not asking for things to be removed.
You've even called it "a garbage passive," but not because it is a bad skill but because it isn't good enough. Because it is "useless at worst."
It's not like this situational tech is even coming with button bloat like what happened with Monk.

I really don't understand this attitude.

NO enhanced Unmend.

Why does literally every other effin job get attention and love. Did the developers at any point in time consider this addition is ridiculous.

Dude, how about upgraded Plunge? Make Plunge available at an earlier level with no charges to give people something to use, y'know, when it's most important. Then give us an upgraded version later on.

But nooooooooo, enhanced Unmend. That is what they want! And the dev with this idea got a promotion too most likely. What a twisted joke, if they hate us then just tell us to GTFO this game. I would appreciate the honesty behind that.

[ArthurATDayne]

Oblation, Enhanced Unmend, Enhanced Living Shadow that still sucks, friggin Salt & Darkness... OMFG LMAO

Sorry I still can't get over how overly mean spirited SquareEnix is with the Dark Knight, so bad it must've been premeditated. No way it was an accident.

Another Tank I was considering taking to 90 besides DRK or PLD was WAR: Not only do all their abilities got revamped, their self healing got smoothed out by being on a wider variety of skills. Like there's plenty to look forward to: Raw Intuition Mastery => Bloodwhetting so it's not just Nascent Flash everything & Enhanced Nascent Flash, Enhanced Equilibrium heal over time effect, Orogeny, Primal Rend AND a 3rd charge of Onslaught (no more beast cost yay) as a bonus etc. Awesome 80-90 Road Ahead.

Oh and Enhanced Shake It Off, not only do I still get my 15% of Max HP mini TBN Shield for myself and all nearby party members, it heals too. I prefer to use that by itself for Tankbusters, really good skill. Hey... why does Dark Knight still not have something like this too for party or raid HP Bubble Shield mitigation? Dark Knight's Dark Missionary 10% Reduced Magic Damage taken for self and nearby party members is still Trash.

I'd like to be optimistic but willing to compromise if SquareEnix is Unable to Improve Anything: Give all Dark Knight players a discounted or free Job Boost to 70/80 Warrior and allow Greatsword Glams. Dark Knight is already a Knock-Off Discount Bin Warrior, might as well throw the player base a bone or two and let them be the Real Deal with a Greatsword. /s

[CoolCat]

Delete DRK