Thoughts of Samurai Changes

[Kazimere]

Overall thoughts put simply are:
Why Shoha 2?
Seigan was like a parry. It will be missed
"I am SAM, I specialize in double Iaijutsu, not flashy finishers." *sigh*
AF chest piece will clip my hair. Bummer.

What I got excited about the most was QoL changes with AoE, which is actually a pretty big deal as it was also my biggest gripe. Should still be a solid choice, and I will adapt to the changes.

Meh. There was no need for AoE Yuki, unless Fuga was just outright upgraded to a circular instead of a cone. AoE Yuki doesn't really serve a purpose. Better QoL would have been making Fuga>Oka>Mag a "1,2,3" instead of a "1,2,1,3." Get the necessary sen up one GCD earlier.

AoE Shoha should have just been tacked on to ST Shoha as a trait.

There isn't a doubt in my mind that they added these two buttons merely to replace the two they took away. Wasn't necessary at all.

[Gemina]

Meh. There was no need for AoE Yuki, unless Fuga was just outright upgraded to a circular instead of a cone. AoE Yuki doesn't really serve a purpose. Better QoL would have been making Fuga>Oka>Mag a "1,2,3" instead of a "1,2,1,3." Get the necessary sen up one GCD earlier.

AoE Shoha should have just been tacked on to ST Shoha as a trait.

There isn't a doubt in my mind that they added these two buttons merely to replace the two they took away. Wasn't necessary at all.

Gee thanks. I was excited. No cake for you party pooper.

Be that is it may, I still like that they went outside the box a bit instead of just a standard 1,2,3 AoE combo. Truth of the matter I see is that SAM's AoE is one of the weakest in game as far as engagement, being just a tad above healer AoE. They literally needed anything.

Issue with traited Shoha is losing an animation, and option on the spender. Again, this is something [animations] that is not strong with SAM, and they can use the help wherever they can get it. So I wouldn't want to lose Shoha for the sake of button bloat. It's also an earned skill much like MNKs forbidden chakra, so having ST and AoE spenders on such skills is pretty important imho. The reason why I said, "Why Shoha 2?" is because of the name. I really hope they change it to something more along the lines of SAM identity. Surely they have a cool sounding term that directly translates to "multiple cut technique" or something? It can't just be "Shoha 2" xD

[Kazimere]

Gee thanks. I was excited. No cake for you party pooper.

Be that is it may, I still like that they went outside the box a bit instead of just a standard 1,2,3 AoE combo. Truth of the matter I see is that SAM's AoE is one of the weakest in game as far as engagement, being just a tad above healer AoE. They literally needed anything.

Issue with traited Shoha is losing an animation, and option on the spender. Again, this is something [animations] that is not strong with SAM, and they can use the help wherever they can get it. So I wouldn't want to lose Shoha for the sake of button bloat. It's also an earned skill much like MNKs forbidden chakra, so having ST and AoE spenders on such skills is pretty important imho. The reason why I said, "Why Shoha 2?" is because of the name. I really hope they change it to something more along the lines of SAM identity. Surely they have a cool sounding term that directly translates to "multiple cut technique" or something? It can't just be "Shoha 2" xD

The thought process doesn't change with two different buttons.

One to two targets, do Shoha 1; three plus, do Shoha 2 (as per the EW TTs). Shares a resource and will probably share CD.
One to two targets, do Shinten; three plus, do Kyuten (the potency difference is so small you'd probably just Kyuten at 2+ though). Shares a resource.
One target, do Senei; two plus, do Guren. Shares a resource and a CD.

You are merely counting how many mobs are up, and using either ST or AoE. At least with a fall off ability, you may want to think about which target gets your big hit, as opposed to the splash. Guren is the only ability that has that thought process, and it is unfortunate that it will never get used outside of trash pulls in dungeons...probably.

That's three buttons that could either not exist, or be used for something that's more interactive to the job as a whole.

AoE Yuki serves absolutely no purpose. It would be one thing if any combination of Setsu and Getsu/ Ka would allow for AoE Higa, but they do not. Now, instead of 1,2,1,3, Tekka, repeat, it will be 1,2,1,4, Tekka, 1,3,1,4, Tekka, repeat.

It's AoE. It boggles my mind why people care so much about involved AoE rotations for dungeon trash.

I hear you on the animations. A cleave ability can get cool animations too. And, let's be real. How well are you really seeing those animations when you're in the middle of a trash pack trying to dodge AoE?

Ikishoten going to two minutes is annoying as well. Tying the capstone to meditation stacks would have been better than tying it to our low CD kenki generation ability. Shoha could have turned into whatever the new ability is called at: let's call it two Shoha uses, or however many you can get in a 90 to 120s period. Kinda like Geirskogul for Dragoon. That would have reinforced better play than "push this button every two minutes three times." Why? Because if you messed up you may not get your super midare inside buff window.

[Gemina]

The thought process doesn't change with two different buttons.

It does when you change the effects on existing buttons. Now that I have more time, and can get into this a bit more; what I should have initially mentioned with SAM AoE and the QoL of it are the changes to AoE combo finishers granting our buffs instead of just extending them. A big problem I have with SAM AoE is I either have to resort to ST in order to put up my buffs if they are down, or burn up my Meikyo. Now I will be able to just go right into AoE, and that is what I meant when I said I got excited for the SAM QoL changes to AoE, and that it is very significant. I honestly don't know why you even made it about Hyosetsu. But I digress.

AoE Yuki serves absolutely no purpose. It would be one thing if any combination of Setsu and Getsu/ Ka would allow for AoE Higa, but they do not. Now, instead of 1,2,1,3, Tekka, repeat, it will be 1,2,1,4, Tekka, 1,3,1,4, Tekka, repeat.

The purpose of Hyosetsu is foregoing refreshing either of your buffs in favor of a slight pot increase. As you have pointed out, we currently go 1,2,1,3, Goken, repeat, in EW we will be alternating 2 and 3 after each Goken. It's not wildly different, but that's also not what I was getting wildly excited about. However, it is still more engaging than current SAM AoE. There are 3 GCDs and Goken before you have to alternate, so it is entirely possible to still use the wrong skill, and have one of your buffs drop off for the next Goken, which would be pretty bad if pushing DPS. I for one favor a slight combo tree opposed to streamlining skills, especially on melee DPS jobs.

It's AoE. It boggles my mind why people care so much about involved AoE rotations for dungeon trash.

Why does it boggle your mind that people don't want to faceplant from boredom burning down dungeon trash? There is also the factor that we spend A LOT of time in dungeons.

[Kazimere]

Snip

Don't disagree with the QoL from buffs being applied instead of refreshed. I'm for that. AoE Yuki and Shoha are seperate. Maybe I should have stated my concurrence with the QoL change upfront, before taking it down that rabbit hole though. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on the AoE Yuki, as well as AoE Shoha being a completely separate button. I see your perspective, but I just can't get on board with it. If there was an actual purpose behind it that wasn't "we took two away so now we add two" then maybe I wouldn't have such a bad taste in my mouth. There wasn't a rotation gap in Sam's AoE (as someone else stated). The issue was the buffs only refreshing instead of applying, of which they have corrected going into EW.

To piggyback to you post talking about Dragoon. I wouldn't call it anymore engaging than SAM from its basic AoE rotation. It's just a 1,2,3 that is turning into a 1,2,3,1 come EW. Where I do agree with you about it though, is that DRG has a few AoE CDs that get rotated in. Here's the thing though, those get used in ST as well. They didn't give DRG a ST Geirskogul and an AoE version. They have one. Their new capstone is also combined, so it will be used in ST and AoE, and their new AoE GCD actually plays into their capstone, because it gives a scale. Their jumps don't share CDs, so they all get used whether ST or AoE. They have a lot of oGCDs though, as is their design. However, that doesn't mean change that a lot of their abilities are just outright designed better, IMO.

Why are we sitting here with a button added to our AoE that doesn't really serve a purpose except for a little more damage? It doesn't get us to our finisher sooner. It doesn't reduce the CD on Ikishoten for more capstone. It doesn't add AoE higa. It's just...10 potency as of now.

Why are we sitting here with an AoE Shoha when they could have just given it a trait to do AoE?

streamlining real estate is not the same thing as dumbing down gameplay.

[Arkdra]

Gee thanks. I was excited. No cake for you party pooper.

Be that is it may, I still like that they went outside the box a bit instead of just a standard 1,2,3 AoE combo. Truth of the matter I see is that SAM's AoE is one of the weakest in game as far as engagement, being just a tad above healer AoE. They literally needed anything.

Issue with traited Shoha is losing an animation, and option on the spender. Again, this is something [animations] that is not strong with SAM, and they can use the help wherever they can get it. So I wouldn't want to lose Shoha for the sake of button bloat. It's also an earned skill much like MNKs forbidden chakra, so having ST and AoE spenders on such skills is pretty important imho. The reason why I said, "Why Shoha 2?" is because of the name. I really hope they change it to something more along the lines of SAM identity. Surely they have a cool sounding term that directly translates to "multiple cut technique" or something? It can't just be "Shoha 2" xD

I... what? Samurai is is one of the most engaging aoe jobs in the game. And how can you say they went outside the box when all they did was add another aoe move that is exactly the same as the other 2 ring aor's in terms of how it impacts you mechanically, and then an aoe version of a skill that already exists? Also a big midare for their final skill. It's super boring design and frankly kind of tedious. I don't want aoe versions of all of my dang skills. I would very much prefer for them to kill most of this split and just make the moves aoe to begin with so they can maybe give us some more interesting skills in their place. And they're probably going to have to since I am pretty sure my bars are going to be 35/36 slots filled after Endwalker so something's going to have to give.

Or at least have these dumb split skills do more than just be damage. I wouldn't grouse so much if Senei applied higenbana for example, or some other effect besides just gurren but single target.

[Gemina]

I... what? Samurai is is one of the most engaging aoe jobs in the game. And how can you say they went outside the box when all they did was add another aoe move that is exactly the same as the other 2 ring aor's in terms of how it impacts you mechanically, and then an aoe version of a skill that already exists?

Like I explained in my last post, Hyosetsu has a slight pot increase over Oka and Mangetsu, but it does not refresh your buffs.

As for the engaging AoE, even my lv60 DRG has better AoE than SAM, and DRG's only gets stronger through cap with some very impressive and rewarding skills, and it is going to get even better in EW. Can you say the same about SAM? Maybe you can, but I know I can't. There's a reason why I never take my SAM into dungeons beyond when I am leveling it. I'm definitely not saying it isn't good from a DPS standpoint. If both Iko and Guren are up, along with double Gokens going out, it can be satisfying going into Tasmanian Devil mode. It's just not very engaging in comparison to other jobs I've played.

When it comes to skills that have ST and AoE variants. It would actually be interesting to hear from the devs exactly how they make this determination.