It's time to hire dedicated Tank an Healer devs!

[MiaShino]

I keep seeing this argument that it is problem for few vocal minority or the devs deem it not a big issue buuuuuuuut;

I am just going to leave this here.

[Nyarlha]

I keep seeing this argument that it is problem for few vocal minority or the devs deem it not a big issue buuuuuuuut;

I am just going to leave this here.

Those two roles will always be the roles in need, it doesn't mean anything. You have more people not playing tank/healers because of "anxiety" than not playing them because they are "boring".

Also, "in need" doesn't mean much. I still get almost instant queues as DPS (at worse 5 minutes) for expert roulette. It would NEVER have happened during StB, back then DPS queues were at least 15/20 minutes long. We have more tanks and healers than we had in past expansions.

[kaynide]

I still get almost instant queues as DPS (at worse 5 minutes) for expert roulette. It would NEVER have happened during StB, back then DPS queues were at least 15/20 minutes long. We have more tanks and healers than we had in post expansions.

This is the bottom line I think most players don’t realize. The devs want short queue times before anything else. If tank or healing jobs are complex to play, it might be fun, but if few people play them then that complexity is undesirable.

This is a big reason games like Guildwars have thrown roles out the window, allowing each job to spec somewhat, but ultimately each job is self reliant. While fun, it feels less like a party based MMO and more like playing 3D street fighter. It works in GW, but with the trinity being so core to FFXIV, the Devs gotta do what they gotta do to keep active numbers up in those two roles.

[Melorie]

This is the bottom line I think most players don’t realize. The devs want short queue times before anything else. If tank or healing jobs are complex to play, it might be fun, but if few people play them then that complexity is undesirable.

Yeah, but like, between being something complex no one wants to touch and literally using 1 button most of the time, because your encounter design allows it, since you have overpowered healing ogcd healing skills and the lack of need for all of them given that the damage comes in bursts that you can easily recover...... There's a huge gap. There's a concept that is called learning curve, and a class can be easier to start but rewarding to master, which isn't the case WITH HEALERS. You can also have options, like an easy WHM (that being said, again... easy =/= spam 1 button) and a more complex ast, or vice-versa. You don't really need to spread this "easy mode" across all the options or leave it at supposedly just one (sage, which doesn't really look like it is truly escaping from the one button spam hell, but we shall see).

Dancer is a very easy class, but still feels "dynamic" at least when you play it. People are simply asking to stop spamming one button forever the better you get at the class. And you don't even need to be good at it to achieve this stage, the content literally throws you at it because of the way it is designed, and unless you go for the hardcore content (and even there...), you don't really have any options to avoid the spam glare/malefic/broil hell.

[GeminiReed]

This is a big reason games like Guildwars have thrown roles out the window, allowing each job to spec somewhat, but ultimately each job is self reliant. While fun, it feels less like a party based MMO and more like playing 3D street fighter. It works in GW, but with the trinity being so core to FFXIV, the Devs gotta do what they gotta do to keep active numbers up in those two roles.

You mean ZergWars? By attempting abandon roles all the open world content devolved into N+1 fights. Their instanced content hadn't fared much better to the point where they needed to (sorta) reintroduce roles just so they could design interesting mechanics. Role-less designs are a monkey's paw (you think you want it but you don't)

[kaynide]

Yeah, but like, between being something complex no one wants to touch and literally using 1 button most of the time, because your encounter design allows it, since you have overpowered healing ogcd healing skills and the lack of need for all of them given that the damage comes in bursts that you can easily recover...... There's a huge gap. There's a concept that is called learning curve, and a class can be easier to start but rewarding to master, which isn't the case WITH HEALERS. You can also have options, like an easy WHM (that being said, again... easy =/= spam 1 button) and a more complex ast, or vice-versa. You don't really need to spread this "easy mode" across all the options or leave it at supposedly just one (sage, which doesn't really look like it is truly escaping from the one button spam hell, but we shall see).

Dancer is a very easy class, but still feels "dynamic" at least when you play it. People are simply asking to stop spamming one button forever the better you get at the class. And you don't even need to be good at it to achieve this stage, the content literally throws you at it because of the way it is designed, and unless you go for the hardcore content (and even there...), you don't really have any options to avoid the spam glare/malefic/broil hell.

I mean, Whm has a lot going on- juggling regen/medica to make lilies so you can instant heal, and juggling them and your actual hard costs while also throwing in your dot.

It’s not rocket science hard or anything, but to ignore the mechanics of its healing kit to say it just has a 1 button rotation has always felt disingenuous.

You mean ZergWars? By attempting abandon roles all the open world content devolved into N+1 fights. Their instanced content hadn't fared much better to the point where they needed to (sorta) reintroduce roles just so they could design interesting mechanics. Role-less designs are a monkey's paw (you think you want it but you don't)

GW has basically abandoned instanced content outside of main story though? And even that is mostly faceroll. I’m not really sure what roles you are meaning in the specs, as nothing in that game would function as a healer or tank in the common understanding of the word. I mean I could get tankier gear/skills, but there is basically nothing that forces mobs on me while my teammates do their thing.

It works for what it’s trying to do and has been largely enjoyable to my solo playing self.

The point of my post was to demonstrate that some games make a lack of roles work, but FFXIV isn’t that game, and that is why healers lack a DPS rotation of any kind. Love it or hate it, this is what the devs have decided on, and I for one support it because players like my wife wouldn’t even try healing if they had to focus on anything else.

As she often says “I’ll try to throw a stone when I can, but I’m focused on dodging the floor and also watching your health bars”

[FrogDog]

I saw an interview Zepla did with Yoshi P and I was stunned by out of touch he seemed to be with the healer meta of his own game and it left me wondering where exactly are the devs pulling this feedback from? Also shocking were some delusional comments on the video from players acting like healers DPSing in high-end content is some new, revolutionary concept. What game are they playing?

https://youtu.be/8_mdi8RMbRk?t=1236

The interview in question with timestamp

I mean, Whm has a lot going on- juggling regen/medica to make lilies so you can instant heal, and juggling them and your actual hard costs while also throwing in your dot.

It’s not rocket science hard or anything, but to ignore the mechanics of its healing kit to say it just has a 1 button rotation has always felt disingenuous.

That's not how lilies work, they're a flat resource that you get one of every 30s. There really should be no "juggling" of regen and Medica II either. Regen goes on tank, and if you need to heal on the move or do an AoE heal there are ogcds that you would go through before Regen or Medica II ideally.

[Deveryn]

I saw an interview Zepla did with Yoshi P and I was stunned by out of touch he seemed to be with the healer meta of his own game and it left me wondering where exactly are the devs pulling this feedback from? Also shocking were some delusional comments on the video from players acting like healers DPSing in high-end content is some new, revolutionary concept. What game are they playing?

https://youtu.be/8_mdi8RMbRk?t=1236

The interview in question with timestamp.

What game are they playing? The same one we are, as he notes in the very same interview. For better healer commentary, you might try MTQ for more healer talk.

https://youtu.be/kAbCjPPS1RQ

As for the Zepla interview, what exactly is wrong with the answer?

They're pulling the feedback from whatever the best source is, where things are communicated better, which is something he comments on in Zepla's interview. Saying someone is out of touch and not really elaborating on what could be done is a great way to keep dragging this on and see no change.

[Jeeqbit]

I saw an interview Zepla did with Yoshi P and I was stunned by out of touch he seemed to be with the healer meta of his own game and it left me wondering where exactly are the devs pulling this feedback from? Also shocking were some delusional comments on the video from players acting like healers DPSing in high-end content is some new, revolutionary concept. What game are they playing?

In JP people queue for savage and that means healers that spam cure would be likely to queue. If we take into account how sprouts queue for extremes and do them with mentors an argument could be made that it's a thing.

[GeminiReed]

GW has basically abandoned instanced content outside of main story though? And even that is mostly faceroll. I’m not really sure what roles you are meaning in the specs, as nothing in that game would function as a healer or tank in the common understanding of the word. I mean I could get tankier gear/skills, but there is basically nothing that forces mobs on me while my teammates do their thing.

Admittedly it's been a few years since I've played it regularly but Druids and Revenants had some pretty strong healing builds. OTOH GW2's enmity mechanics were some of the worst I've ever played against. Mostly you took one of the mesmer specs for the mitigation and then cheesed the HP stats to trigger hate. Of course some of the encounters deviated from that. I've seen furthest person and round-robin. That's from memory so I reserve the right to be wrong on the exact details.

They had no choice but to abandon what little challenging content they had when their raid/fractal designer quit after NCSoft smacked ANet hard for neglecting the game.

I mean sure their version of role-less works for the people that like that sort of thing but it's not even close to being universally appealing. If you want instanced group content you're not playing GW2 for that.