Dark Knight Megathread

[WhyAmIHere]

If we were to make a separate topic talking about about all the things Dark Knights and Tank players across the spectrum have an issue with then Lyth should be the one to write it since they are very articulate and have a strong grasp on what all the issues are. And the only way the developers will even so much as glance at it is purely on like count. And that it would have to be massive. Like 10k likes or more.

And this topic should only have messages written by Lyth. No peanut gallery commentary. Just straight facts.

Would it change things? Not likely but it might be a way to get them to say "Oh people aren't happy". Instead of looking the other way and saying that there isn't any problem at all.

Nah. I like Lyth posts but just having *one* voice serve as an arbiter for the consensus of the forums is not a good idea. There're folks that disagree with Lyth, and with how things are here culturally everyone'd still want to have their special spot of importance, i.e. their own threads.

Like, it's strictly a cultural issue. The JP forums seem to be like a tall apartment complex filled with myriad discussions and arguments. Sure they're varied but they're all at least in one place. Here it's more like an apartment development, with a bunch of smaller, but more narrow (kinda) in focus points to discuss. How many threads have been made for all of Shadowbringers about DRK? The front page for the tank section was almost nothing *but* DRK threads. There were some for WAR, the GNB sound effects thread, and maybe one or two for PLD? But by and large even just looking at the tnak section's first page should've been enough to see "oh wow the ENG side is sure talking a lot about DRK, eh?"

Plus with a language barrier, there's nuance and subtlety that can get lost in translation, both ways ENG<->JP. Just look at the recent interviews for instance. Several interviewers addressed concerns over healers and their issues, but YoshiP's response was either a juke to dodge it, or a dismissal, or some version of "I know what I'm doing." It's hard to exactly and precisely convey what yo mean to say on so many levels; whether its tone, phrasing, euphemism, humor, or whatever.

DRK's complaints have gone unheard, and hearing YoshiP admit "I haven't heard anything about blood weapon" when asked about that and wildfire being clunky is a clearcut example of these problems. Having just one person being "the voice of the forums" just cuts out even more opinions and viewpoints to try and improve the situation DRK players are facing going in to the next expansion with little to show to draw any sense of "wow that's so cool I can't wait to do that!"

[MagiusNecros]

Having several DRK threads on an English forum minority does nothing. Just becomes a forgotten cacophony.

[RyuDragnier]

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Tell me...why hasn't SE hired you yet? These are really good ideas and a really good grasp on DRK.

[Ryaduera]

Tell me...why hasn't SE hired you yet? These are really good ideas and a really good grasp on DRK.

You flatter me, but I don't know anything about game design. There may be a fatal flaw in my ideas we're glossing over.

[TouchandFeel]

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While I may agree with some of Lyth's posts and points, they definitely don't fully represent me and my opinions.
We don't need just one person acting as the gatekeeper to the tank forums or for DRK. Feedback and discussions would be easier to follow and less likely to be ignored if people would be less "rage-posty" and slower to try and shout others down that don't fall in line with their own ultra specific ideas and desires.

[Ignimortis]

Let me know what you think! I know nothing like this will come true, but I can dream...

While I understand your reasoning and can agree on a few things (copying other tanks isn't really terrible in some regard, and using Darkside time as a resource is a neat idea, if a bit HW-ish BotD-like), I don't really see your changes making DRK gameplay exciting. It's just going to be a PLD clone instead of a WAR clone, with two burst phases — one with Bloodspillers, the other with New Spell and a lot of pretty boring downtime still. This further leads into DRK losing the last vestiges of its' previous identity as the "oGCD tank".

The issue is, in part, that GNB simply came over and took the throne at the same moment SE reworked DRK. Right now, GNB has 9 damaging oGCDs per minute — two Blasting Zones, six Continuations, and Bow Shock. That's more than any other tank currently, and since Burst Strike gets a Continuation of its' own, it's gonna have even more. It's very active gameplay, and if there wasn't a No Mercy burst phase, I'd be a GNB main for half the expansion already, I think.

My thoughts on burst phases:

I dislike having straightforward burst phases (+% damage or free usage of costly skills) built into every class, and much prefer things like Samurai's Meikyo Shisui that is versatile and can be used for both setup and burst as needed. Despite people being hyped about PLD's new Requiescat finishers, I see it as SE doubling down on the simplest form of burst phases for tanks other than GNB.

Granted, there are burst phases I like, such as Hypercharge or NIN Mudras, but they fit these jobs very well thematically and gameplay-wise (they also have non-standard patterns for such, with oGCDs for MCH and Mudra combinations for NIN). I also like the indirect burst phase that Blood Weapon has always provided — it doesn't increase your damage per se, but it provides resources you can use at your leisure, usually for more damage.

Therefore, I would rather have DRK with no forced burst phase at all, to contrast PLD (whole gameplay is rotating between two burst phases, one physical, one magical), WAR (everything builds up to a ~10 second burst phase once per minute), and GNB (one 20s burst phase per minute, you need to start preparing a bit before it starts, but there's downtime where you throw out an unbuffed Gnashing Fang and Blasting Zone and such). Sustained DPS is present in DPS classes — SAM is one such class, with their "burst" being evenly spread all around in their core gameplay, and RDM has no synergy between their nominal burst melee/spell combo and their off-globals like Fleche and Contre Sixte (since they are physical, Embolden does nothing for them). Why not have a tank like that?

If we were to make a separate topic talking about about all the things Dark Knights and Tank players across the spectrum have an issue with then Lyth should be the one to write it since they are very articulate and have a strong grasp on what all the issues are. And the only way the developers will even so much as glance at it is purely on like count. And that it would have to be massive. Like 10k likes or more.

And this topic should only have messages written by Lyth. No peanut gallery commentary. Just straight facts.

Would it change things? Not likely but it might be a way to get them to say "Oh people aren't happy". Instead of looking the other way and saying that there isn't any problem at all.

I do not agree with Lyth on several points. I don't think we need to present a perfect design through a single spokesperson to SE — what they need to see is that people are active in the DRK thread and most of the comments rate the EW changes (and the ShB DRK rework) negatively. If that's not enough for them (considering the JP playerbase also rates DRK changes poorly this time around), then they've lost their way already and we won't have any impact whatever we do.

[Shin96]

If we were to make a separate topic talking about about all the things Dark Knights and Tank players across the spectrum have an issue with then Lyth should be the one to write it since they are very articulate and have a strong grasp on what all the issues are. And the only way the developers will even so much as glance at it is purely on like count. And that it would have to be massive. Like 10k likes or more.

And this topic should only have messages written by Lyth. No peanut gallery commentary. Just straight facts.

Would it change things? Not likely but it might be a way to get them to say "Oh people aren't happy". Instead of looking the other way and saying that there isn't any problem at all.

Oh boy.

No, I don't think so. Actually, I don't think so at all.

Lyth doesn't represent an ounce of my opinions. The only thing I agree with them is Living Dead. Otherwise, there's only disagreement on that front. That said, I respect them and their opinions.

I hate using Bloodspiller and Quietus, I hate Living Shadow, I hate the way Dark Arts is lazily maintained by using an EoS/FoS once upon a lifetime. I hate the similiarity between Delirium and IR. Hate is a strong word, but you could easily remove 50% of DRK's kit and only give me Salted Earth, Carve and Spit. I'd be happier having that than being remembered ad verbatim of how butchered this job feels.

I also dislike using 1-2-3. Something Lyth doesn't agree with but if I was given the chance to see Power Slash in some functional form I'd take that any day. Actually, I did the job quest again and saw Sidurgu use it. I wish they could have repurposed it in some viable way. It pains my heart to see all the cool animations and resources just gone for a joke of a rework.

That said, what I want is one thing, what ends up happening is another. DRK is functional at the moment, but the fun is gone. If you were selling me it as a product I would never buy it. What I want is that the developers use 3.0 DRK as a reference, not a one on one comparison mind you. Respect the original source material, it's the reason so many people fell in love with it to begin with.

[Ryaduera]

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I understand where you're coming from, but I would easily say that if you are constantly alternating between 2 burst phases and they rotate periodically, such as you say PLD does, then that means it's no longer burst phases but instead consistent DPS coming from multiple sources. DPS is kept up by alternating your source of DPS, keeping to one thing too long is a DPS loss. That's what I've tried to "solve" for DRK with this spell. If the downtime is less than the burst time, it's just a resting phase to take a breather instead of constantly making sure that you always have your sources available. The proposed Scourge is on a 30 second cooldown because that is just longer than what what 2 full rotations of your 1-2-3 combo are, which when filled in with Carve and Spit (for MP) and the excess blood gauge used on Bloodspiller (to fill the time with a heavy hit between bursts), is just under 3000 mana which is usually all you need for another New Spell. None of these skills increase actual damage, just accessibility of the new source of damage that would be the new spell while also forcing you to space out your Edge of Darkness to prevent overcapping. Since you still have Delirium and Bloodspiller as well, it's not so much a copy of PLD so much as pulling inspiration from both sources and melding them to benefit eachother. Delirium gives MP for the new spell and the new spell fills damage time for the next Delirium.

Giving DRK even more oGCD as damage sources also means something somewhere else has to give. For Samurai, as an example, it has no real raid utility outside of damage and lacks any self sustaining properties. SMN and RDM get raises, DNC buffs damage, DRG buffs crit, RDM (will) buff party damage, the list goes on. And the problem with removing raid utility from a tank and giving it damage comes an issue 3.0 had with Warrior, in that you have an unhealthy meta of "you need x as an off tank because it's basically a 5th DPS that can sometimes handle tank swap mechanics" which is something Squeenix desperately tried to remove, and they have been mostly successful. The alternative is to keep raid utility strong (TBN and we've yet to see how a charged targeted mitigation will hold up) but take potencies away from the GCD's in favor of putting them on oGCD's, which is also unhealthy as it makes the class needlessly difficult to manage. This either comes with a lot of charges on oGCD's or some serious button bloat, which was a big problem with DRK in 3.0. There were just too many buttons to use all of the time. I preferred 3.0 DRK, that's why I'm leveling GNB on a new server. The fact is if you want a healthy game, sometimes the good players have to accept their skill expression will fade for an overall healthier MMO experience. GNB is the spiritual successor to a playstyle that objectively was too difficult for most players to keep up on. Now that tanks are more focused on their defensive abilities the tank role is healthier, there used to always be demand for tanks, and while for statics this is still true, tanking as a role is way more commonly seen now than previous expansions because it's been made more accessible. A total revert to that playstyle would be a bad thing.

[ZaqueXIII]

The spread of suggestion and reworks is really interesting. I know there are mixed opinions on current DRK and its changes going into EW. While I dont play tank as my main DRK has been one of the jobs ive been playing more of when tanking.

Its beating a dead horse at this point but living dead needs some love, its okay but no other invuln cooldown can kill you if you dont get healed and DRK lacks to tools to do it themselves and shouldnt have to force certain comps or people to adjust to them so intensely in critical moments.

Additionally I feel like there should be more than one way to obtain the dark arts buff, proccing off of a popped TBN is nice enough but it feels like a neglected part of the kit. Maybe as reward for finishing the combo or as part of a seperate combo or maybe proccing off of quietus/bloodspiller but it would be nice to see this very cool part of the job more.

As well, I think living shadow just feels out of place in the tank role I undertand its value but players would likely just prefer a direct DOT button, maybe it would feel better if the shadow took over for you and took the hits for a few seconds instead(potentially as a better form of invuln!?).

I think there is potential in this DRK but it needs a bit more love than the media tour preview showed it.(also I thought they said in the previous LL that they were gonna change dark mind to block all damage and not just magic so... heres hoping that still happens)

[Ignimortis]

Giving DRK even more oGCD as damage sources also means something somewhere else has to give. The alternative is to keep raid utility strong (TBN and we've yet to see how a charged targeted mitigation will hold up) but take potencies away from the GCD's in favor of putting them on oGCD's, which is also unhealthy as it makes the class needlessly difficult to manage.

Ah, but you can shuffle damage around a lot. In fact, you can just...reduce potencies on the oGCDs but make them used more often. CnS down to 30 seconds and half potency, EoS/FoS down to 1k and one third potency/1.5k MP and half potency. No button bloat, no difficulty managing them, really. If you rework Delirium into something that works on its' own, maybe even increasing potency for your next 3 non-GCDs instead of just letting you use Bloodspiller x3, that reinforces the playstyle even more. And no tank uses the GCD haste aspect of the game, despite a lot of DPS getting +10-15% WS haste. DRK used to do that, but now it doesn't - why not bring that back?

Always having something to do isn't "needlessly difficult to manage". Especially if that "something" is just weaving oGCDs every few seconds.

The fact is if you want a healthy game, sometimes the good players have to accept their skill expression will fade for an overall healthier MMO experience. GNB is the spiritual successor to a playstyle that objectively was too difficult for most players to keep up on. Now that tanks are more focused on their defensive abilities the tank role is healthier, there used to always be demand for tanks, and while for statics this is still true, tanking as a role is way more commonly seen now than previous expansions because it's been made more accessible. A total revert to that playstyle would be a bad thing.

Why should DRK have lost the playstyle that attracted the players to it initially and GNB be the replacement? I liked 3.0 and 4.0 DRK, I like GNB aesthetics much less, but somehow it's me who has to change my main job? I find that a very strange decision. I have already mained DRK for the entirety of 5.0 solely due to aesthetics, but in 6.0, I'm not gonna do that again.

There are two beginner-friendly tanks in the game already, which start at level 1 and ease players into tanking over time. They have distinct playstyles and aesthetics too, so it's not like there's no actual choice for newcomers.

I am not asking for DRK to have the whole 3.0 playstyle. But I also don't want it to be the 5.0 playstyle of "very busy opener/burst phase, absolutely nothing to do in-between". I like the idea of having to be consistent all the time instead of spikes and lows. Old DRK kit did that, and I would like to have that back. I won't even mind if that puts the maximum possible DPS for DRK lower than all the other tanks (though that, SE manage to avoid easily).