Dark Knight Megathread

[Ignimortis]

Let me know what you think! I know nothing like this will come true, but I can dream...

While I understand your reasoning and can agree on a few things (copying other tanks isn't really terrible in some regard, and using Darkside time as a resource is a neat idea, if a bit HW-ish BotD-like), I don't really see your changes making DRK gameplay exciting. It's just going to be a PLD clone instead of a WAR clone, with two burst phases — one with Bloodspillers, the other with New Spell and a lot of pretty boring downtime still. This further leads into DRK losing the last vestiges of its' previous identity as the "oGCD tank".

The issue is, in part, that GNB simply came over and took the throne at the same moment SE reworked DRK. Right now, GNB has 9 damaging oGCDs per minute — two Blasting Zones, six Continuations, and Bow Shock. That's more than any other tank currently, and since Burst Strike gets a Continuation of its' own, it's gonna have even more. It's very active gameplay, and if there wasn't a No Mercy burst phase, I'd be a GNB main for half the expansion already, I think.

My thoughts on burst phases:

I dislike having straightforward burst phases (+% damage or free usage of costly skills) built into every class, and much prefer things like Samurai's Meikyo Shisui that is versatile and can be used for both setup and burst as needed. Despite people being hyped about PLD's new Requiescat finishers, I see it as SE doubling down on the simplest form of burst phases for tanks other than GNB.

Granted, there are burst phases I like, such as Hypercharge or NIN Mudras, but they fit these jobs very well thematically and gameplay-wise (they also have non-standard patterns for such, with oGCDs for MCH and Mudra combinations for NIN). I also like the indirect burst phase that Blood Weapon has always provided — it doesn't increase your damage per se, but it provides resources you can use at your leisure, usually for more damage.

Therefore, I would rather have DRK with no forced burst phase at all, to contrast PLD (whole gameplay is rotating between two burst phases, one physical, one magical), WAR (everything builds up to a ~10 second burst phase once per minute), and GNB (one 20s burst phase per minute, you need to start preparing a bit before it starts, but there's downtime where you throw out an unbuffed Gnashing Fang and Blasting Zone and such). Sustained DPS is present in DPS classes — SAM is one such class, with their "burst" being evenly spread all around in their core gameplay, and RDM has no synergy between their nominal burst melee/spell combo and their off-globals like Fleche and Contre Sixte (since they are physical, Embolden does nothing for them). Why not have a tank like that?

If we were to make a separate topic talking about about all the things Dark Knights and Tank players across the spectrum have an issue with then Lyth should be the one to write it since they are very articulate and have a strong grasp on what all the issues are. And the only way the developers will even so much as glance at it is purely on like count. And that it would have to be massive. Like 10k likes or more.

And this topic should only have messages written by Lyth. No peanut gallery commentary. Just straight facts.

Would it change things? Not likely but it might be a way to get them to say "Oh people aren't happy". Instead of looking the other way and saying that there isn't any problem at all.

I do not agree with Lyth on several points. I don't think we need to present a perfect design through a single spokesperson to SE — what they need to see is that people are active in the DRK thread and most of the comments rate the EW changes (and the ShB DRK rework) negatively. If that's not enough for them (considering the JP playerbase also rates DRK changes poorly this time around), then they've lost their way already and we won't have any impact whatever we do.

[Ryaduera]

Snip

I understand where you're coming from, but I would easily say that if you are constantly alternating between 2 burst phases and they rotate periodically, such as you say PLD does, then that means it's no longer burst phases but instead consistent DPS coming from multiple sources. DPS is kept up by alternating your source of DPS, keeping to one thing too long is a DPS loss. That's what I've tried to "solve" for DRK with this spell. If the downtime is less than the burst time, it's just a resting phase to take a breather instead of constantly making sure that you always have your sources available. The proposed Scourge is on a 30 second cooldown because that is just longer than what what 2 full rotations of your 1-2-3 combo are, which when filled in with Carve and Spit (for MP) and the excess blood gauge used on Bloodspiller (to fill the time with a heavy hit between bursts), is just under 3000 mana which is usually all you need for another New Spell. None of these skills increase actual damage, just accessibility of the new source of damage that would be the new spell while also forcing you to space out your Edge of Darkness to prevent overcapping. Since you still have Delirium and Bloodspiller as well, it's not so much a copy of PLD so much as pulling inspiration from both sources and melding them to benefit eachother. Delirium gives MP for the new spell and the new spell fills damage time for the next Delirium.

Giving DRK even more oGCD as damage sources also means something somewhere else has to give. For Samurai, as an example, it has no real raid utility outside of damage and lacks any self sustaining properties. SMN and RDM get raises, DNC buffs damage, DRG buffs crit, RDM (will) buff party damage, the list goes on. And the problem with removing raid utility from a tank and giving it damage comes an issue 3.0 had with Warrior, in that you have an unhealthy meta of "you need x as an off tank because it's basically a 5th DPS that can sometimes handle tank swap mechanics" which is something Squeenix desperately tried to remove, and they have been mostly successful. The alternative is to keep raid utility strong (TBN and we've yet to see how a charged targeted mitigation will hold up) but take potencies away from the GCD's in favor of putting them on oGCD's, which is also unhealthy as it makes the class needlessly difficult to manage. This either comes with a lot of charges on oGCD's or some serious button bloat, which was a big problem with DRK in 3.0. There were just too many buttons to use all of the time. I preferred 3.0 DRK, that's why I'm leveling GNB on a new server. The fact is if you want a healthy game, sometimes the good players have to accept their skill expression will fade for an overall healthier MMO experience. GNB is the spiritual successor to a playstyle that objectively was too difficult for most players to keep up on. Now that tanks are more focused on their defensive abilities the tank role is healthier, there used to always be demand for tanks, and while for statics this is still true, tanking as a role is way more commonly seen now than previous expansions because it's been made more accessible. A total revert to that playstyle would be a bad thing.

[Ignimortis]

Giving DRK even more oGCD as damage sources also means something somewhere else has to give. The alternative is to keep raid utility strong (TBN and we've yet to see how a charged targeted mitigation will hold up) but take potencies away from the GCD's in favor of putting them on oGCD's, which is also unhealthy as it makes the class needlessly difficult to manage.

Ah, but you can shuffle damage around a lot. In fact, you can just...reduce potencies on the oGCDs but make them used more often. CnS down to 30 seconds and half potency, EoS/FoS down to 1k and one third potency/1.5k MP and half potency. No button bloat, no difficulty managing them, really. If you rework Delirium into something that works on its' own, maybe even increasing potency for your next 3 non-GCDs instead of just letting you use Bloodspiller x3, that reinforces the playstyle even more. And no tank uses the GCD haste aspect of the game, despite a lot of DPS getting +10-15% WS haste. DRK used to do that, but now it doesn't - why not bring that back?

Always having something to do isn't "needlessly difficult to manage". Especially if that "something" is just weaving oGCDs every few seconds.

The fact is if you want a healthy game, sometimes the good players have to accept their skill expression will fade for an overall healthier MMO experience. GNB is the spiritual successor to a playstyle that objectively was too difficult for most players to keep up on. Now that tanks are more focused on their defensive abilities the tank role is healthier, there used to always be demand for tanks, and while for statics this is still true, tanking as a role is way more commonly seen now than previous expansions because it's been made more accessible. A total revert to that playstyle would be a bad thing.

Why should DRK have lost the playstyle that attracted the players to it initially and GNB be the replacement? I liked 3.0 and 4.0 DRK, I like GNB aesthetics much less, but somehow it's me who has to change my main job? I find that a very strange decision. I have already mained DRK for the entirety of 5.0 solely due to aesthetics, but in 6.0, I'm not gonna do that again.

There are two beginner-friendly tanks in the game already, which start at level 1 and ease players into tanking over time. They have distinct playstyles and aesthetics too, so it's not like there's no actual choice for newcomers.

I am not asking for DRK to have the whole 3.0 playstyle. But I also don't want it to be the 5.0 playstyle of "very busy opener/burst phase, absolutely nothing to do in-between". I like the idea of having to be consistent all the time instead of spikes and lows. Old DRK kit did that, and I would like to have that back. I won't even mind if that puts the maximum possible DPS for DRK lower than all the other tanks (though that, SE manage to avoid easily).

[Ryaduera]

Ah, but you can shuffle damage around a lot. In fact, you can just...reduce potencies on the oGCDs but make them used more often. CnS down to 30 seconds and half potency, EoS/FoS down to 1k and one third potency/1.5k MP and half potency. No button bloat, no difficulty managing them, really. If you rework Delirium into something that works on its' own, maybe even increasing potency for your next 3 non-GCDs instead of just letting you use Bloodspiller x3, that reinforces the playstyle even more. And no tank uses the GCD haste aspect of the game, despite a lot of DPS getting +10-15% WS haste. DRK used to do that, but now it doesn't - why not bring that back?

Always having something to do isn't "needlessly difficult to manage". Especially if that "something" is just weaving oGCDs every few seconds.

If you are doing the same thing, but more often, then it doesn't change anything about DRK other than bloating up the plastyle that people aren't enjoying. DRK is already very noisy with oGCD's because of Edge of Darkness. The word "noisy" here doesn't mean busy, as it is certainly not busy. Noisy refers to doing something just because it's available. If the only reason you're using an ability is "because it's up" that's just noise in the grand scheme of things. Even GNB oGCD's line up withNo Mercy for the burst windows. DRK literally just uses Edge of Darkness, Salted Earth, Carve and Spit, Abyssal Drain, Plunge, and soon Shadowbringer for no reason other than it's literally just available. There's no ryme or reason to use the abilities, there's no damage buff to line up with the cooldown timers. GNB is a rythm. Each oGCD cooldown is either even with No Mercy, or half, which means you want the oGCD's to line up with No Mercy, and then the few oGCD's that are up before the next No Mercy are just filler that don't get buffed. Noise doesn't come from having a lot to do, noise comes from doing just because it's there and you can literally turn your brain off and do the same thing. Noise is the lack of rythm.

Why should DRK have lost the playstyle that attracted the players to it initially and GNB be the replacement? I liked 3.0 and 4.0 DRK, I like GNB aesthetics much less, but somehow it's me who has to change my main job? I find that a very strange decision. I have already mained DRK for the entirety of 5.0 solely due to aesthetics, but in 6.0, I'm not gonna do that again.

There are two beginner-friendly tanks in the game already, which start at level 1 and ease players into tanking over time. They have distinct playstyles and aesthetics too, so it's not like there's no actual choice for newcomers.

I am not asking for DRK to have the whole 3.0 playstyle. But I also don't want it to be the 5.0 playstyle of "very busy opener/burst phase, absolutely nothing to do in-between". I like the idea of having to be consistent all the time instead of spikes and lows. Old DRK kit did that, and I would like to have that back. I won't even mind if that puts the maximum possible DPS for DRK lower than all the other tanks (though that, SE manage to avoid easily).

Old DRK kit was very fun, but objectively once it was "solved" it was very bad. You did the same thing all encounter, but it felt more fun because it was busy. This wasn't "noise" because there was a rhyme and reason to do it. I had Dark Arts bound onto my E key back then and it felt good to use because I would be feeling the rythm of my skills on my number keys with my E key. What they've done is took the rhyme and reason away and gave us filler. That's why I've proposed making Darkside a resource that actually has to be managed. You no longer open emptying your mana into Darkside because that results in overcap, but you do want to funnel that mana into damage until you're out, then build into Delirium which builds mana up, which funnels into damage, which goes into blood weapon, which is the only downtime you get (assuming no change to BW then 10s of downtime in minutes worth of consistent DPS), because that funnels into more use of your new spell which brings Delirium back up which funnels into MP which funn-- you get the idea. Because of this playstyle you would be constantly alternating uses of your Edge of Darkness but not in the spammy way of "It's up so I guess I press that button now". You'd have to calculate it, just like you had to calculate the old Dark Arts to keep your Darkside ticking away at your MP for damage.

And nobody is saying you have to switch. That's actually why we're having this discussion, people like DRK and want it fun again. Using myself as an example isn't me saying "Well I did it so so should you." It was just me explaining why I didn't even bother with DRK at all once I got to 60. It's not fun. It's boring. My proposed solution may not be THE solution, but I have to say bloating the class with more of the exact thing that makes it a problem is probably not the way to go.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you put the rythm back in DRK it feels like it used to.

[Ignimortis]

Old DRK kit was very fun, but objectively once it was "solved" it was very bad. You did the same thing all encounter, but it felt more fun because it was busy. This wasn't "noise" because there was a rhyme and reason to do it.

So how it was very bad if it was fun? Doing the same thing the whole encounter isn't bad, as long as that thing is fun to do in itself. I don't see why you should switch things up on every class — again, SAM does the same thing always and DRG does the same thing except sometimes their dragonblast is red instead of blue (but the button presses stay the same).

If the only reason you're using an ability is "because it's up" that's just noise in the grand scheme of things.

Doesn't mean it can't be fun. Doesn't mean every class should be a build-up towards some grand finale (or at least that grand finale doesn't need to come in 60-second increments). SAM still has a decent rhythm, despite most of its' gameplay being 1-2-3, 1-4-5, 1-6, Kaiten, Iai, repeat with oGCDs slotting in whenever you need to dump Kenki or have a 2-minute massive hit available or you've stacked 3 Shoha bars (which are themselves are tied into the Iai use). The only reason you might hold them is for alignment with raid buffs, but you have no personal CD-limited buff that says "you shouldn't use this right now, wait 10 seconds for your burst CD to be up", and that's good. There should be a tank that does that, IMO.

And to be honest, old DRK did feel a lot more "just press whatever's available (as long as you're mindful of your MP)". I did pretty well back in SB simply by rationing MP usage, and still had much higher APM than I do in ShB. I just had more buttons to press, and that's what I miss a lot.

[Ryaduera]

So how it was very bad if it was fun? Doing the same thing the whole encounter isn't bad, as long as that thing is fun to do in itself. I don't see why you should switch things up on every class — again, SAM does the same thing always and DRG does the same thing except sometimes their dragonblast is red instead of blue (but the button presses stay the same).



Doesn't mean it can't be fun. Doesn't mean every class should be a build-up towards some grand finale (or at least that grand finale doesn't need to come in 60-second increments). SAM still has a decent rhythm, despite most of its' gameplay being 1-2-3, 1-4-5, 1-6, Kaiten, Iai, repeat with oGCDs slotting in whenever you need to dump Kenki or have a 2-minute massive hit available or you've stacked 3 Shoha bars (which are themselves are tied into the Iai use). The only reason you might hold them is for alignment with raid buffs, but you have no personal CD-limited buff that says "you shouldn't use this right now, wait 10 seconds for your burst CD to be up", and that's good. There should be a tank that does that, IMO.

And to be honest, old DRK did feel a lot more "just press whatever's available (as long as you're mindful of your MP)". I did pretty well back in SB simply by rationing MP usage, and still had much higher APM than I do in ShB. I just had more buttons to press, and that's what I miss a lot.

Bad doesn't mean not fun. Bad can mean unhealthy for the game, and it really was unhealthy.

I don't know how else to tell you there is no grand fanale in this set up. Everything is consistent but changing, as in a rotation. I don't see why you can't see that. I'm ok with my idea not being liked, but like... at least understand what it even is. Yes, SAM has rythm... That's why it's fun and good and we aren't talking about it???