Dungeons we need to talk dungeons

[_Koneko_]

Japanese level design has been trash for awhile now. This isn't exclusive to FF14. From Software is an exception.

According to you but there is a culture difference at work here and the people who matter aka the people this game was made for aka the japanese like the game how it is

in the grand scheme the United States or Europe don't matter the game can live on asia alone

[Velnora]

According to you but there is a culture difference at work here and the people who matter aka the people this game was made for aka the japanese like the game how it is

in the grand scheme the United States or Europe don't matter the game can live on asia alone

It's rather bold of you to speak for all of the japanese. It has nothing to do with "culture", and everything to do with objectively bad level design.

[Artemiz]

It's rather bold of you to speak for all of the japanese. It has nothing to do with "culture", and everything to do with objectively bad level design.

Well that depends on what the design philosophy is, doesn't it. If the design is supposed to give experienced players an immersive, dynamic and challenging environment then yes, it's bad design. On the other hand if the design is for easy going content everyone can complete, even the easiest to challenge players in the game, on a daily basis in 15 minutes or less with very little stress and arguing, then the design makes much more sense.

People really do struggle to argue objectively on topics like this, just because you find them easy and boring, that makes them easy and boring full stop. No, you might not like them but others are having fun with them, Square have all the data, they know how much this content is being played and seem very happy to pitch it at this level of difficulty and devote large resources towards it every patch.

[Velnora]

Well that depends on what the design philosophy is, doesn't it. If the design is supposed to give experienced players an immersive, dynamic and challenging environment then yes, it's bad design. On the other hand if the design is for easy going content everyone can complete, even the easiest to challenge players in the game, on a daily basis in 15 minutes or less with very little stress and arguing, then the design makes much more sense.

People really do struggle to argue objectively on topics like this, just because you find them easy and boring, that makes them easy and boring full stop. No, you might not like them but others are having fun with them, Square have all the data, they know how much this content is being played and seem very happy to pitch it at this level of difficulty and devote large resources towards it every patch.

Not talking about whether they are fun or entertaining. Nor is it difficulty, as difficulty =/=level design. Again, this isn't exclusive to FF14. FF13 was also heavily criticized for this, and again with FF7R.

[Snorky]

Not talking about whether they are fun or entertaining. Nor is it difficulty, as difficulty =/=level design.

But that is the point fun doesn't have to equal difficult entertaining doesn't have to equal hard there is nothing wrong with the design either.

[Velnora]

But that is the point fun doesn't have to equal difficult entertaining doesn't have to equal hard there is nothing wrong with the design either.

That isn't what I said, at all.

[Artemiz]

Not talking about whether they are fun or entertaining. Nor is it difficulty, as difficulty =/=level design. Again, this isn't exclusive to FF14. FF13 was also heavily criticized for this, and again with FF7R.

What exactly is your problem with the current dungeons then? You seem very vocal about how "trash" they are yet apparently you aren't saying they are boring or too easy. What is is you expect from content designed for the entire player base?

[Velnora]

What exactly is your problem with the current dungeons then? You seem very vocal about how "trash" they are yet apparently you aren't saying they are boring or too easy. What is is you expect from content designed for the entire player base?

They are glorified hallways. I know they are boring and incredibly easy, but that is an issue separate from level design.

[Artemiz]

They are glorified hallways. I know they are boring and incredibly easy, but that is an issue separate from level design.

Cool, how did it work out when Square gave us options on which path to take then? From my memory everyone quickly memorized the "correct" route and ignored the rest of the dungeon. The closest thing I can imagine to a complex dungeon design that could work would be Delve from FFXI. What people did there was either get lost and killed, moan about having to kill tons of useless trash trying to find the boss or use illegal mods to find the boss they wanted, runs timing out before they could find the boss, or while fighting it were not uncommon. Only with like minded friends could you really expect a successful chilled out exploration type experience, random pugs didn't really provide it, certainly not on a consistent basis.

FFXIV dungeons are designed to be completed quickly, daily, consistently and with a random group of players using random jobs without anyone getting lost or anyone getting picked on. Their design works fine, it's the philosophy you don't like and that's completely understandable, you can please some of the people some of the time, but never all of the people all the time.