Dungeons we need to talk dungeons

[Jirah]

I don’t know Jirah, I meant that sincerely when I said I don’t know. Would I like to see some changes in the formula as it has evolved over time? Yes absolutely. Do I think going back to what was is realistic? I think that’s automatically considered ‘niche’ these days. And that’s just not what game devs will put a lot of their resources in. I’m trying to figure out what would work and I come up blank myself (good thing I’m not a game dev )

Evolving and going back don’t mix, we need to adapts and evolve to what’s given not just simply regress to what we moved on from. And contrary to everyone here, also doesn’t mean stagnate and not do anything with it as well or make it more trivial.

[Artemiz]

Why are we discussing economics? I hope people know we don’t want causal content to go away right? I’m fully aware how everyone overreacts to suggestions but again we just want improvements of the dungeon design as it’s the only explorative content in the game as raids are just trials, this doesn’t mean “ make it Hardcore” nor does it mean “Make it too difficult to comprehend” if you cleared Dancing plague or SoS or Eden 4,8,11 then it shouldn’t be a tall order to ask for some more variables, at the very least have tanks do something else now that aggro is a non issue.

Because in a subscription model economics will always be important. I agree that dungeons are really easy now but Square have gone in that direction for a reason. I also urge caution on assuming difficulty should be decided by MMO veterans or people invested enough into the game to talk on forums about it.

As an older gamer I know plenty of people irl who have plenty of spare money to spend, but not much time. I'm the only one who has played MMO's though, so to me this game is kinda easy until you get to the harder stuff. My Brother, who recently started playing is a veteran of hardcore RTS games and sim games. He is good at games but MMO's are new to him. As a result, he finds some dungeons challenging. He has done really well at learning the game but he started at 0. He tells me of his experiences and I've watched some of his sprout only runs, where there is no veteran in sight. It's a different world to the one I inhabit let me tell you.

[ReynTime]

The actual majority of players are indifferent. They simply play the game as it is not saying anything or making any waves or ripples. They play it as it is as long as they get an amount of enjoyment from it they feel is sufficient to pay a sub for (provided they aren't just playing the free version). They stick around because it's something they can play with their friends either IRL or the ones they made in game. There are also those that stick around simply because they have a completionist mentality and want to see how the game ends. The actual majority will just take any changes that happen and roll with it making any adjustments needed to keep going as they have been.

This is the truth, really.

People talk as if ARR dungeon or boss design was killing the game active population or something. Guess what? The game was still growing. Slowly, but it was.
Dungeon bosses causing wipes occasionally is being mentioned here as if it was a huge crisis. Yeah I was there when there were always at least 1 person dying in some of those fights basically every run. Yeah I had parties wiping a few times. Didn't make a big deal of it.
There is a massive gap between the level of challenge those old encounters (in their original state, and for their time) and dungeons and something like the infamous Alexander tier that "nearly killed the raid scene" as some like to echo.
Most people would be mildly annoyed about dungeons being less passive than they are now AT WORST. They don't care too much as long as they're still interested in the MSQ, characters, music, setting, activities and there are enough playable jobs they enjoy using.
Both people like me who HATE current non high-end content design AND people who are vocal with the "we must protect the casuals!" speech are a vocal minority. The majority just adapts with it and do not manifest themselves outside their own circle of friends, if even.

[Artemiz]

I dont see anyone trying to "protect the casuals" I see people trying to explain why they matter.

[Velnora]

Because in a subscription model economics will always be important. I agree that dungeons are really easy now but Square have gone in that direction for a reason. I also urge caution on assuming difficulty should be decided by MMO veterans or people invested enough into the game to talk on forums about it.

As an older gamer I know plenty of people irl who have plenty of spare money to spend, but not much time. I'm the only one who has played MMO's though, so to me this game is kinda easy until you get to the harder stuff. My Brother, who recently started playing is a veteran of hardcore RTS games and sim games. He is good at games but MMO's are new to him. As a result, he finds some dungeons challenging. He has done really well at learning the game but he started at 0. He tells me of his experiences and I've watched some of his sprout only runs, where there is no veteran in sight. It's a different world to the one I inhabit let me tell you.

You can have easy dungeons while still being fun and engaging. Right now, they are neither. Nor do they provide a sense of progression.

[Jirah]

I dont see anyone trying to "protect the casuals" I see people trying to explain why they matter.

I’ve been dealing with this debate since early SB, and I see every point across. This includes the “protect the casuals” crowd. You have to be incredibly selective on your choice of posts if you can confidently say “I don’t see anyone” in that particular crowd when the major points are for them And them alone. I’m running out of posts for the day so I’ll just say this, dungeon design can use some spice here and there, not to undermine the point of casual content nor to tear it down but to integrate a bit more thought into them. I mean for crying out loud you can go afk in relict and only do snort and win, or better yet don’t do any tank buffs, or even attack outside of 1 or 2 aoes and still can pass it successfully due to how under-tuned and how pointless mechanics are. I want less of that and more of what SB dungeons or HW dungeons brought to the table, hell even a few leveling dungeons in SHB were ok, but fall flat and boring when it comes to 80s

[Ayche]

Do not start owning up the "silent majority".
It leads down to even trashier arguments.

[Nishira]

Evolving and going back don’t mix, we need to adapts and evolve to what’s given not just simply regress to what we moved on from. And contrary to everyone here, also doesn’t mean stagnate and not do anything with it as well or make it more trivial.

I think I haven’t seen many advocating in this thread to have it remain where it is.

Some do, they enjoy it as it is and enjoy the fact it doesn’t take too much brainpower to clear. Which is a valid point, whether someone else likes the consequences of it or not. So I think we can safely conclude some are actually happy with it the way it is now. Some don’t want it to be harder because dungeons will take longer, and they’ll get even more frustrated with other players not playing great. Some worry it’ll give reason for a rise in elitism and more people getting kicked, which, all things considered, isn’t farfetched when I think on how that played out in other games I’ve played. Some feel it is sufficiently hard for new(er) players and I have to say as a new player myself it’s a lot to take in every time with all the different boss abilities and mechanics. This obviously changes once you get more familiar with content but it’s something to keep in mind when you design content everyone is funneled through. I’m just giving a few examples of why people may oppose change, I’m sure there are more.

Personally I feel boss fights in this game are fun, with a lot of interesting mechanics. It’s obvious they put a lot of effort into that. I do think the general flow of dungeons could be changed, I get the hallways 3 packs of trash complaints. I’d suggest looking into that if anyone asked for my opinion But what I’d replace it with I’m not sure. Tougher trash? I think many would just find that annoying. More intricate layout? Probably the same. More optional events? People would skip that for maximum efficiency if they can. A lot has been tried to entice players to play differently and I think often it feels like needless and frustrating obstacles to the finish line. That’s why I say I don’t know what would be an amazing alternative.

[Velnora]

I think I haven’t seen many advocating in this thread to have it remain where it is.

Some do, they enjoy it as it is and enjoy the fact it doesn’t take too much brainpower to clear. Which is a valid point, whether someone else likes the consequences of it or not. So I think we can safely conclude some are actually happy with it the way it is now. Some don’t want it to be harder because dungeons will take longer, and they’ll get even more frustrated with other players not playing great. Some worry it’ll give reason for a rise in elitism and more people getting kicked, which, all things considered, isn’t farfetched when I think on how that played out in other games I’ve played. Some feel it is sufficiently hard for new(er) players and I have to say as a new player myself it’s a lot to take in every time with all the different boss abilities and mechanics. This obviously changes once you get more familiar with content but it’s something to keep in mind when you design content everyone is funneled through. I’m just giving a few examples of why people may oppose change, I’m sure there are more.

Personally I feel boss fights in this game are fun, with a lot of interesting mechanics. It’s obvious they put a lot of effort into that. I do think the general flow of dungeons could be changed, I get the hallways 3 packs of trash complaints. I’d suggest looking into that if anyone asked for my opinion But what I’d replace it with I’m not sure. Tougher trash? I think many would just find that annoying. More intricate layout? Probably the same. More optional events? People would skip that for maximum efficiency if they can. A lot has been tried to entice players to play differently and I think often it feels like needless and frustrating obstacles to the finish line. That’s why I say I don’t know what would be an amazing alternative.

Alot of the issues stem from japanese level design being absolute trash tier.

[_Koneko_]

or maybe the west is just wrong in their mentality and the dungeon design is fine and in the end japan is all that matter anyway if the japanese players think its fine its fine but if you need this challenge you seem to crave I hear there some game called World of Warcraft waiting for you .... their obsession with challenge turned the playerbase into a complete toxic cesspool