Dungeons we need to talk dungeons

[Jirah]

Call me the minority, but I enjoy dungeons the way they are. They're good for leveling, getting tomes and other sundry items, glamour farming, generally derping around with friends, and *practicing mechanics*. I think this last one is most important. Dungeons give us the opportunity to practice mechanics on various classes before going into the 8 and 24 player content where they actually matter.


I agree that the two-packs and a boss recipe gets boring, but anything will be boring after a while. Larger dungeons with more varied pathways will not only get boring, they'll get *tedious* after a while, leading to the old Aurum Vale syndrome. Roulette dungeons are pretty much the best of a bad situation so the best we can do is put our heads down and get them done with as little fuss as possible for those weekly tomestones.

This is bar none the worst attitude to have about MMO content, let’s all just say “that’s just how it is” like it will never get better and without it even improving a sliver. For god sakes this is 80s content we don’t need hallways tutorials unless you unsynched all the content and got carried by the harder trials like Castrim Flu, and Dancing plague. If you need to improve basic mechanics I suggest play Sastsha not all the 80s dungeons, worse is that some of the ARR ones are harder which undermines the whole “they are there for new players to not be intimidated by a aoe” debacle

Players in the game have a serious issue with being overly coddled. Last I checked this isn’t a kids game

[Steelbreaker25]

To suggest any which will inevitably be shot down by the stagnating crowd, one needs to understand the dungeons best attitudes are explorative content and teamwork. With these fundamentals you can have a lot of avenues.

Midpull mechanics, Example being but not limited to like stack markers doing a pull so your not just grabbing a crowd and spamming your aoe. Ghmliyt sorta does this.

Unscripted mechanics, have it randomize to adjust not to order but to familiarity so you need to watch which action is a tank buster which action is raid wide and which action does unique stuff

Telegraph thru mob action, example would Be skalla where the final boss does actions similar based on its anatomy like slashes and beams

Hazards and traps. I think Hullisland had bear traps and Dona castle had turrets to walk around with your trash, so you needed to dance around it if you carried it further. Autumn vale had vents and poisons so you couldn’t just stand still

Key hunting, Totorak and Hakkue manor had these while one is universally hated and the other is a joy to do more so since it’s the first dungeons to do as jobs

Roaming hostile mobs, again hakkue manor did this and to lesser extent long step and greater extent crowds of roamers like vale. This would require The Tank to actually watch out and either collect them or take the mobs away from others

Intractables, like the cannons in Stone vigil where you needed to use outside means to destroy the boss or mobs

Prioritized mobs, this one is for the DPS, have them focus on vital mobs like the retrain collar in Baelsar’s wall, the final stingers in quarn or the Banish III casters in Pharos

Hazardous Dots, like the frostbite in The Burn, or several poisons from Ampdapor. As healers and when everything is fine, that should be a nother thing to watch out for and keep in check it or your making your job more difficult.

Open areas, long step dark hold and vale work against the W2W boring tactic due to their respected rooms. This would complete flip the monotony.

Sad thing is these have all been done before and the best suggestion the hyper casuals have in this thread is play something else and let the bland content rot.

I don't see how any of those things are super interesting more than once.

[Melorie]

I agree that, given that now you can do it with trusts, at least post-expansion-launch dungeons, such as the ones that you do in the between patches and composes the expert roulette should be a bit more challenging. I came back from a break, and I've been running expert and honestly? The only thing that changes from a low lvl dungeon run is the fact that I at least have my full skill kit, which I suppose doesn't mean much as a healer, but aside from that both dungeons are way too easy. I kinda miss the level of Baelsar's Wall and The Burn. I'm not even asking for some mind-blowing design here, I'm literally throwing examples already in-game.

Matoya's specially was a huge disappointment, even though I love the aesthetic and the final boss. Palgth'an was a bit better because it's always fun to see the storytelling involved, but still, mechanic-wise is... blergh.

As always, suggesting anything more than a snooze-fest is seen as a waste of time. God forbid, feeling engaged by this video-game.

[Artemiz]

There is a reason dungeons got easier, it's because if you make roulette content too difficult then people bail at the start, or fight amongst each other when the wipes start. This game has been there, seen it and done it. For the record, the toxicity very rarely comes from newer or "casual" players who are struggling, it almost always starts when an experience player loses patience with someone for not one shotting everything below savage content.

As for players bailing it was a big issue, especially on pre-nerf Pharos Sirius. Nothing more annoying than waiting in a 20 minutes queue to then zone in and the tank just bails.

SE know what level of difficulty the DF can support without too many problems and for many it's a bar that's too low, that's unfortunate but it's the reality. the 50/60/70/80 and expert roulettes are arguably the biggest bone of contention but they also have to be the easiest because players doing those roulettes get salty very fast if they take longer than absolutely necessary. Even now, with them as fast and easy as possible people manage to fall out the minute the tank doesn't W2W pull.

It would be nice to have more challenging dungeons but they wouldn't be in the DF and as such would probably be a waste of development time. They would almost certainly be better off using that time to make more dungeons like we have now that would be done by everyone.

[Kozh]

There is a reason dungeons got easier, it's because if you make roulette content too difficult then people bail at the start, or fight amongst each other when the wipes start. This game has been there, seen it and done it. For the record, the toxicity very rarely comes from newer or "casual" players who are struggling, it almost always starts when an experience player loses patience with someone for not one shotting everything below savage content. Snip...

Yes but at the same time, making content easier means people won't learn either. Now not only they make dungeon easier, they also give "super easy" option for solo duties (which already easy enough). So it's kinda lowering the "quality" of players over time. And tbh lowering difficulty feels like a knee-jerk reaction too. People can change and improve. Why not give greater reward instead of dumbing down the whole system.

Also, "toxicity very rarely comes from newbies"? That's simply untrue.

[Artemiz]

Yes but at the same time, making content easier means people won't learn either. Now not only they make dungeon easier, they also give "super easy" option for solo duties (which already easy enough). So it's kinda lowering the "quality" of players over time. And tbh lowering difficulty feels like a knee-jerk reaction too. People can change and improve. Why not give greater reward instead of dumbing down the whole system.

Also, "toxicity very rarely comes from newbies"? That's simply untrue.

SE aren't trying to teach you how to be good at games, they are trying to entertain you while you play games. If people want to be good at games it's ultimately up to them to learn and there is plenty of much harder content than the level 80 roulette for them to grow and learn. If they force that on players they get less of them, and people fall out with each other in content. It's the exact opposite of a knee-jerk reaction, that would be an immediate over reaction to a problem. The dumbing down of dungeons has been a long and steady process to the point we are at now.

If you personally don't find dungeons entertaining then you only have to do them once, other methods exist for exp and tomes if you'd rather do those instead. That seems to be SE's solution to players who find the dungeons too easy and boring, options. The suggestion of making them harder will only shrink the player base and lead to more drama. SE knows this, it's why they went in this direction in the first place.

As for toxic newbies they exist for sure, but most people who are struggling tend to be embarrassed about it. The problems start when experienced players get condescending or rude about mechanics they find easy, but others are struggling with. That's been my experience anyway, not just with this game, or any game, but life in general.

[Mindiori]

Players in the game have a serious issue with being overly coddled. Last I checked this isn’t a kids game

Yet we both know, that because this style of laughable laziness and meaningless existence is the majority by way of peoples tendency to be exactly that, lazy; they are the loudest financial voice. In many respects they have destroyed the genre with their own selfishness - whilst claiming that our 'minority' should be ignored. Almost laughable in its irony, considering the 'hurr durr equality' trend they try and argue when it suits them. If anything is tedious its their disingenuous motives. Which really equate to being mentally unable to handle anyone being able to do something they can't. You oft say I am prone to exaggerate; but as you can see - I do so, usually to offset their own. Something which when unchecked, often tends to set the narrative.

I accept that to compromise with what they cite to be 'casual'; some middle ground needs be found. I do however take disagreement as you know by now - the notion that casual = entertained by braindead rubbish. Which isn't anything more than again, agenda driven mental gymnastics. Something's relative worth, is often established by comparative norms. So having things easy - serves no purpose. Except as experience has shown, to create an unnecessary gulf between the tiny fraction of things requiring a brain and those that don't. Which in turn worsens the scenario I believe.

If the game needs be repeatedly dumbed down to account for the bottom tier and skip-pot users; one might begin to question why the early game should even exist anymore. Or how it can be justified to play with so little through so many levels. Presumably a vast amount don't. Seems we have the usual 'the only game is endgame' going on - when the actual bar to most content in terms of skill, is basically just being able to click one button. Not exactly the height of feeling with regard to accomplishment or worth is it.

[RitsukoSonoda]

Yet we both know, that because this style of laughable laziness and meaningless existence is the majority by way of peoples tendency to be exactly that, lazy; they are the loudest financial voice. In many respects they have destroyed the genre with their own selfishness - whilst claiming that our 'minority' should be ignored. Almost laughable in its irony, considering the 'hurr durr equality' trend they try and argue when it suits them. If anything is tedious its their disingenuous motives. Which really equate to being mentally unable to handle anyone being able to do something they can't. You oft say I am prone to exaggerate; but as you can see - I do so, usually to offset their own. Something which when unchecked, often tends to set the narrative.

I accept that to compromise with what they cite to be 'casual'; some middle ground needs be found. I do however take disagreement as you know by now - the notion that casual = entertained by braindead rubbish. Which isn't anything more than again, agenda driven mental gymnastics. Something's relative worth, is often established by comparative norms. So having things easy - serves no purpose. Except as experience has shown, to create an unnecessary gulf between the tiny fraction of things requiring a brain and those that don't. Which in turn worsens the scenario I believe.

If the game needs be repeatedly dumbed down to account for the bottom tier and skip-pot users; one might begin to question why the early game should even exist anymore. Or how it can be justified to play with so little through so many levels. Presumably a vast amount don't. Seems we have the usual 'the only game is endgame' going on - when the actual bar to most content in terms of skill, is basically just being able to click one button. Not exactly the height of feeling with regard to accomplishment or worth is it.

The issue is that the lazy gamers are actually the minority. However like most people of that mindset that want things without working for them they expend as much or more effort and energy in whining and complaining about why they shouldn't have to work than they would have by just doing it. It's like children in a store. A majority of them are well behaved. People tend to only notice the obnoxious one screaming at the top of their lungs throwing a fit because they want something and their parents aren't giving it to them. The problem is how the situation is handled. All of this dumbing down easy mode stuff SE has been doing to this game is about the equivalent of the parents of said screaming child giving them the thing they wanted because they don't want everyone in the store looking at them which is basically rewarding bad behavior.

[Ath192]

I would encourage the SE staff to make dungeons medium difficulty with engaging mechanics instead of just a braindead story telling device. While some people may quit and complain and leave I don't think that would be a big chunk of players and the game would be so much better for it.

I have never seen a game where the difficulty level has killed it. Even games whose hallmark is explicitly being difficult, like dark souls, has its fan base. I'm not saying that should be the goal, however, I fail to see making dungeons engaging and keeping players on their toes all the time makes for a bad game.

I would cast my vote to let the whiners drop out, and make the game an engaging one, they may even attract other players who are looking for a rush or keep the newer ones that quit because they find the game boring. And I have known plenty of people who have bought it, played it, and quit cuz its plain not fun when people just steam roll through the content and leave them behind.

In a harder game they would have to catch that person up because, and this is key, they are needed. And that makes players feel good.

There are ways to deal with players who quit because something is too hard. Such as... Increase the penalty to 3 hours for dropping. That will REALLY make them think before leaving. In their defense however, also add an option to kick for "uncooperative players" and "suspected bot" because there's been instances where a player refuses to listen or maybe doesn't even speak the language and party can't move forward.

And finally roll out the "trust" system to all dungeons, if you wanna play solo, so be it, as long as people who want to play multiplayer get a good dungeon experience where people actually need to cooperate and work together.

[Ath192]

I also want to make a point that FFXI is about to celebrate its 20 year anniversary and in large part that game is alive because of how difficult it was, and the bonds the players formed with each other to overcome obstacles and work together.