RIP MNK 1.x - 5.x

[Andy_T93]

Poorly worded I'll admit... but as it is now I mainly see people using True North in conjuction with the Perfect Balance burst.

My point was the removal seems to be to allow ease of use of blitzes even if it does nothing to change the positions we go to in the normal combo. It may just be muscle memory, but I can't see myself treating them as though they had no positional outside of blitzing since you still have the same requirements on the other four moves. Movement won't be terribly impacted by their loss. So when he complained that the removal of the positional changed nothing when he tested it as-is on a striking dummy, that to me seems like removing two without really changing anything about the core rotation of the job.

It's also telling that the two skills that lost their positionals are the middle skills in each combo/rotation so if you are opening with Dragon kick (flank) twin snakes (any) demolish (rear) Bootshine (rear) True Strike (any) Snap Punch (Flank) you can essentially execute Twin snakes and true strike while on the move moving from flank to rear and vice versa. Ultimately from a positional POV the opening rotation of the GCD is now:

F,A,R,R,A,F which means you only have to move twice, You could essentially go to the flank for dragon kick then move to the rear for twin snakes, demolish, boot shine and true strike moving back to the flank for snap punch. In other you can be F,R,R,R,R,F so only moving twice

These two skills were definitely picked to prick up the constant moving from one to another to allow players to get into position with more time

[Masekase_Hurricane]

I welcome the change out of all classes mnk has stayed consistent and only changed slightly over the expansions. It's nice to have a change.

[wereotter]

I mean it's literally a free GCD per three-form-cycle by which to move from back to flank. If you used Boot, you've got an extra GCD to get in place for Snap. If you used Dragon, you've got an extra GCD to get in place for Demo. In certain rotations where it'd time out about the same anyways, it might not amount to much, but no positionals on ANY Raptor Form skill is still... pretty significant.

...I guess my main peeve with this change is that it doesn't fix the lead issue in that unlike in ToD and Fracture a la ARR/HW, these non-positionals aren't also Any-Form and therefore the advantage they grant is largely subject to luck of timing. If we wanted to actually fix the issue, the obvious solution would have been to give a formless short CD (probably with a couple charges) on a single GCD (unlike SSS) by which to use the given GCD and/or modulate the length of any rotational string or to simply offer a "safety" mechanic, such as building stacks over time by which our positionals would count as having hit successfully even if they don't (consuming that stack).

Riddle of Earth and True North are still on Yoshida's hotbars when he showed it off. But that also assumes that the skills are fundamentally unchanged. So we do have what you're talking about, Riddle of Earth stacks three times, is OGCD and gives you the next three skills as being non-positional. So we already have what you're talking about but better than before not only because of the frequency and ease of use, but also because they don't take a ridiculous amount of TP (which no longer exists, buts till was a problem in Heavensward)

[ssunny2008]

This has become a bit aggressive everyone has their opinions

Nobody has ever said something against opinions, but a lot of arguments against positionals are inconsistent or made by ppl without much experience / who don´t even try.

- There are claims like "positionals don´t bring anything to the gameplay". But imagine there are a lot of players who like them and would miss them, because it´s atleast a small challenge and a bunch of movement in an 98% braindead and static game. Of course MNK needed a new mechanic, but that doesn´t mean, that positionals should go away, even if those are only 2 imo. They do bring much more to the gameplay then pressing 123 over and over again to fill a gauge until you can press 4.

- Then you´ve claims like "positionals are easy to play". So why does ppl don´t get used to them so easily? I´ve never got an answer on this, the reason seems obvious.

- Or "i hate playing positionals". Fine... but MNK has always been about them. Why don´t you pick another class? "Because i like some aesthetics."
But in the next moment: "MNK has no finisher and need better aesthetics".
And ok, why don´t you just ignore positionals then? They´re not needed in any content out of savage / ultimate. -> Still no answer on this and guess what? I can easily spy such guys and know, that they don´t even play the endgame and are not even good players, for sure.

- Lately someone special here was like "get ride of positionals pls" too, but in the next self-made thread he´s asking "what´s the purpose of anatman". Really? Does it sounds experienced or something?
Or the same guy is like "I hate positionals on MNK, but love them on DRG." Sooooo... play Dragoon?!

- Or like we´ve seen in this thread, ppl have never really played, tried or did math, tested stuff, whatever... but let´s claim that MNK positionals are irrelevant, because it´s only a 5% damage loss. Like what?
And even if that would be a thing, what in gods name hinders you to ignore them, when they´re useless anyway in your eyes?


Maybe you´ve some answers?

Nobody will say something against an opinion, but stuff like this doesn´t make sense. Such ppl just spread false informations or lie on purpose, just to find some arguments against positionals, which doesn´t show "i´m a bad player, i´m lazy".
I´ve never seen any MNK main complain like "We don´t want new mechanics."
It was needed. But what we want is that ALL positionals should stay as they are imo. And of course it would be kind to get a new and UNIQUE mechanic and not just the Meikyo Mudra we´ll get with blitz. 6.0 MNK will be more similar to other melees and will be easier to play. Even then... i wouldn´t be surprised, that the same ppl show up like "bäääh MNK", "bäääh positionals" in endwalker.

The acceptance of ppl, who don´t like anything about a class in this game, is a joke. I dislike SMN and DNC the most for a bunch of reasons, but do i complain about it? Do i want to get them changed for my own favor? No, i just don´t play them, unless i want to get an achievement or so. My better half for example is playing healer only, because everything else is either too boring or doesn´t match her playstyle. Does she complain? No... and so do millions of players, who can accept that a game has to offer different stuff for different ppl. SE needs to stop to cater the ignorance of some lefthanded players out there, seriously.

[Navnav]

It's a multiplayer game, part of the challenge is working with other players. Report tanks for griefing if they refuse to stop spinning the boss, it works, and they get an un-eraseable mark on their account that can lead to a permaban. And honestly, report any player who griefs like this, because they bring down the quality of the gameplay experience for everyone else. I don't care how long they've played, I don't care how much time they've put into their character, they deserve the ban and can start all over again for being a jackass.

Speaking frankly though, that's a dungeon/alliance raids problem/normal raids roullette, which aren't really designed to test anyone's skill. If you're worried about parses during that content... you're probably stressing over absolutely nothing. Even the most uncoordinated groups can faceroll through If you're actually doing endgame content, a tank that is purposefully griefing their DPS isn't going to last very long in the group, and if they happen to be the person who started the group, people will leave it rather than deal with their BS.

Removing something from the game just because there's a set of players who will purposefully work to ruin the experience of others is not and should never be the correct solution for any job. Ban the players who are abusing others.

Your whole view is not grounded in reality, it is simply idealistic thinking. The REALITY is you are in no control over whether what a tank may decide to do, but what they do affects your damage. That is a designflaw for monk more than ny other as every ability is a positional. Reality says the tank doesn't care about your ideals, the tank will play how he wants to play. And don't come with this, "BuT iT IsNt SaVaGe!", cmon even in the normals people want to do some damage.

[Navnav]

- Lately someone special here was like "get ride of positionals pls" too, but in the next self-made thread he´s asking "what´s the purpose of anatman". Really? Does it sounds experienced or something?
Or the same guy is like "I hate positionals on MNK, but love them on DRG." Sooooo... play Dragoon?!

Hello my guy...

Anatman IS pointless. Just form shift. That MINIMAL gain over a long fight IS pointless. You can argue, but it is never going to make thta much of a difference.
Also, just because you don't like what I am saying, doesn't make it an invalid point, get off your high horse yeah. A lot of you think you are some kind gods at this game, but seemingly never played anything else. You don't know how this game can be better because you don't know how these kinds of games work, YOU are in fact the inexperienced one.

[VentVanitas]

Where does the "spin 2 win tank" belief even stem from? These posts bringing them up greatly exaggerate their uncommon occurrence and act like it isn't anything more than a mild inconvenience so long as they aren't griefing. Even if that was the case, that's a problem with that specific player, not a problem with a feature on an entirely unrelated role.

[Shurrikhan]

Riddle of Earth and True North are still on Yoshida's hotbars when he showed it off. But that also assumes that the skills are fundamentally unchanged. So we do have what you're talking about, Riddle of Earth stacks three times, is OGCD and gives you the next three skills as being non-positional. So we already have what you're talking about but better than before

Yes, but that's precisely my point. Given those tools... why remove the positionals from all Raptor skills?

It might make sense, QoL-wise, to essentially turn RoE into a simple stack system as I described before, but short of that... what use do we have for a form losing positionals?

[wereotter]

Hello my guy...

Anatman IS pointless. Just form shift. That MINIMAL gain over a long fight IS pointless. You can argue, but it is never going to make thta much of a difference.
Also, just because you don't like what I am saying, doesn't make it an invalid point, get off your high horse yeah. A lot of you think you are some kind gods at this game, but seemingly never played anything else. You don't know how this game can be better because you don't know how these kinds of games work, YOU are in fact the inexperienced one.

minimal gain ≠ no gain

Monk has historically been the king of minimally useful, niche skills there to act as a bandaid on the mechanic that was greased lightning. The fact that you're unaware of this and are constantly on here criticizing the job because of its core identity without knowing what its skills are for really proves ssunny's point that actually you're the inexperienced one.

Yes, but that's precisely my point. Given those tools... why remove the positionals from all Raptor skills?

It might make sense, QoL-wise, to essentially turn RoE into a simple stack system as I described before, but short of that... what use do we have for a form losing positionals?

Riddle of Earth is a stack system, so I'm not sure what you're asking for... you get three stacks of it currently. I can't defend the loss of the positionals based off the blitz mechanic any better, though, since we don't know too much about how the system will operate yet, only to say that the devs stated that this was the reason they were removed from those two skills. We'll be able to weigh in more as to if they actually needed to do it once we get to play with it.

[MagiusNecros]

Riddle of Earth and True North seem like a poor band-aid fix when they could just remove positionals and save players button bloat. I can see RoE being nice for raid progression on damage mitigation at full stacks but overall it seems it's more about having no positionals during spin the boss or boss mechanics.

Maybe I'll level cap Monk in EW if it proves to be more fun then tedious.

I could see merit in positionals if meeting the requirement gives you new attacks or dbls base potency.

And I think the plan is to give Monks their burst if they do positionals under Perfect Balance?