~Poll~ Longer fights <Do you want it?>

[fusional]

how so?

take your time explaining that with valid logic and evidence.



(incoming evasive deflection/projection maneuvers in 5... 4... 3...)

[Soukyuu]

"oh, you don't like it when people let petty, ignorant personal biases cloud better judgment and their ability to think critically and discuss constructively and objectively. people like you suck QQ wahhhh"

Thank you for proving my point.

[Andrien]

At least the fights we have now is not brain dead, hack & slash, press X until the monster is dead.

I say leave EXP mobs to exp on so we can EXP Chain. Quest mobs and NM's should be more challenging.

[Rokien]

you haven't the faintest understanding of how logic works, do you? of how to make reasonable, well-constructed arguments? of how to engage in productive discourse?

i'd call you a troll, but i'm entirely convinced now you're just catastrophically dense. (and probably 14 years old)

but, yeah. good job making baseless arguments with inaccurate and incorrect examples, then having absolutely nothing to say for yourself and nothing to counter with when your feeble excuse for an argument is categorically deconstructed.

Of course I do I took a logic class . Hmmm Dense, naaa, gullible, yaaa. My argument was not inaccurate please tell me how it was inaccurate? You were talking about a boss, you didn't say it WAS one of the hardest things, you didn't say the OLD WoW, you just said WoW in general so, Iwas correct in every way

[fusional]

Of course I do I took a logic class . Hmmm Dense, naaa, gullible, yaaa. My argument was not inaccurate please tell me how it was inaccurate? You were talking about a boss, you didn't say it WAS one of the hardest things, you didn't say the OLD WoW, you just said WoW in general so, Iwas correct in every way

i've already demonstrated precisely how your argument was inaccurate. the fact that you either refused to read or process it doesn't make it any less valid, doesn't make it suddenly cease to exist. go back and read it. (specifically the parts using FFXI examples)

and no, you clearly didn't take a course in logic or critical thinking. if you did, you slept through it.

regardless, allow me to help. this TED talk should be very helpful and informative.

[Rokien]

The fact that you are dodging my point means you need to learn how to be wrong.... I KNOW about ffxi... ffxi is not what it was back in the day, of course its easy to solo the old stuff, duh, everyone knows that.... god. I think the dense one is you here. The fact that you stated, that mob is harder than anything on ffxiv.. here let me go quote it for ya again. "nothing in this game even begins to rival Yogg Saron (WoW) in difficulty. not even remotely close." Yet, it was easily solo able.... Though Ifrit/moogle is impossible to solo, maybe you just need to choose your words better!~ next time you wanna try and argue.

I win!~ Shazzamel


Also, people who go out of their way to state their own accomplishments to try and prove a point.... does not justify the case. In fact it makes it worse.

Also, "and the vast... majority... of us... don't... like... mashing 111111111111? " That's your logic...... Don't bash someone else when you have even more flawed logic.

[Threads]

I think this discussion is kind of a paradox. It isn't as much about the time it takes to kill a monster as it is about strategy. When your party kills a monster (or in the current state of the game, a group of monsters) before you can use even one single ability then strategy cannot exist.

So how do you introduce strategy back into battles;
1. You increase the length of the battles by (I didn't say it wasn't a factor)
a. You increase a monsters HP.
b. You increase a monsters DEF.
c. You increase a monsters resistance to certain elements or spells.
d. You increase the monsters ability to dodge.
e. You get the idea, etc...

2. You make emnity management key to strategy.

3. You make HP/MP management key to strategy.

4. You make position important to damage and strategy.

5. You improve upon monster AI.
a. Give monsters the ability to strike pre-emptively or anticipate attacks, etc...

6. You require teamwork from players by creating synergies between abilities.
a. Weaponskills, Combos, Battle Regimens, etc...

I think XI had a 'nearly' perfect battle system. I will give you an example. Final Fantasy XI in The Crawler's Nest...

The set-up (or any similar combination)

Ninja, White Mage, Bard, Warrior, Samurai, Thief

Ninja: 'Holy cow! I have to keep shadows up to avoid damage. I have to provoke and do enough damage to keep hate all while the stupid crawler keeps spamming 'slow'.

White Mage: 'Darn it! That stupid crawler won't stop spamming 'slow' and that means I have to keep spamming 'erase'. I also have to keep everyone in the party healed, especially the tank and still have enough MP at the end to keep the pace consistent.

Bard: 'How am I going to keep all these people buffed? I have to keep 'ballad' on the mage. Keep 'madrigal' and 'minuet' on all the damage dealers. Not to mention I have to pull the next monster and 'lullaby' it so it is waiting once the party is done with the first one.'

Warrior: 'Stupid Ninja! We could kill this thing so much faster if he could keep hate from all my weaponskills, traits and abilities.

Samurai: 'I don't think I'm building TP fast enough. I better Meditate and use another weaponskill. Whoops, I pulled hate again. 'Seigan' + 'Third Eye'.

Theif: 'I wish this Samurai could turn the monster so I could get 'Sneak Attack' + 'Trick Attack' on the Ninja so he'd stop loosing hate for a minute.

I really hope I get my point across that it is more than simply timing that needs improving. This might be a lame example but all of these things worked in concert to make partying fun for me.

[fusional]

(deliberately obtuse drivel)

note the dates of the videos posted. pay close attention to the link and video i provided versus yours. note the instance was added in the Wrath of the Lich King expansion, where the level cap was 80. note the video you posted is circa Cataclysm expansion, with a level cap of 85. note the enormous difference in health and damage in the videos. and the guy is in heroic firelands gear- a full 150 item levels higher than ulduar gear (226)...

so what you've basically done is take someone talking about time/level appropriate difficulty in content (say, Nidhogg from Zilart expansion in FFXI, level 75 content) and use a counter example that is absolutely not time/level appropriate (say, a level 95 character in Abyssea gear soloing level 75 Nidhogg). and that is your basis for a difficulty comparison?

this TED talk should be very helpful and informative.

anyway, i have better things to do than argue with a child. continue your petulant, febrile flailing or not. i honestly don't care. enjoy!

[Dragon]

I think this discussion is kind of a paradox. It isn't as much about the time it takes to kill a monster as it is about strategy. When your party kills a monster (or in the current state of the game, a group of monsters) before you can use even one single ability then strategy cannot exist.

So how do you introduce strategy back into battles;
1. You increase the length of the battles (I didn't say it wasn't a factor)
a. You increase a monsters HP.
b. You increase a monsters DEF.
c. You increase a monsters resistance to certain elements or spells.
d. You increase the monsters ability to dodge.
e. You get the idea, etc...

2. You make emnity management key to strategy.

3. You make HP/MP management key to strategy.

4. You make position important to damage and strategy.

5. You improve upon monster AI.
a. Give monsters the ability to strike pre-emptively or anticipate attacks, etc...

I think XI had a 'nearly' perfect battle system. I will give you an example. The Crawler's Nest...

The set-up (or any similar combination)

Ninja, White Mage, Bard, Warrior, Samurai, Thief

Ninja: 'Holy cow! I have to keep shadows up to avoid damage. I have to provoke and do enough damage to keep hate all while the stupid crawler keeps spamming 'slow'.

White Mage: 'Darn it! That stupid crawler won't stop spamming 'slow' and that means I have to keep spamming 'erase'. I also have to keep everyone in the party healed, especially the tank and still have enough MP at the end to keep the pace consistent.

Bard: 'How am I going to keep all these people buffed? I have to keep 'ballad' on the mage. Keep 'madrigal' and 'minuet' on all the damage dealers. Not to mention I have to pull the next monster and 'lullaby' it so it is waiting once the party is done with the first one.'

Warrior: 'Stupid Ninja! We could kill this thing so much faster if he could keep hate from all my weaponskills, traits and abilities.

Samurai: 'I don't think I'm building TP fast enough. I better Meditate and use another weaponskill. Whoops, I pulled hate again. 'Seigan' + 'Third Eye'.

Theif: 'I wish this Samurai could turn the monster so I could get 'Sneak Attack' + 'Trick Attack' on the Ninja so he'd stop loosing hate for a minute.

I really hope I get my point across that it is more than simply timing that needs improving. This might be a lame example but all of these things worked in concert to make partying fun for me.

It is a paradox, thank you for pointing it out.

At the end of the day, strategy and tactics require timing to execute. Not even Ifrit lasts long enough for any formula to really be executed (and I'm sure it's the same for Mog King as I've heard that Mog King is inherently easier).

To practice strategy requires a durable enemy; to practice tactics requires a ferocious enemy.

[Turtle]

The trend I'm seeing with people who do not want longer fights is that they do not want less exp over time. EXP is too easy to get even outside of abusing the PL system. Someone who commits to leveling can conquer all DoW/DoM jobs in a month. The rate that you leveled when this game came out was perfect in my opinion. Longer fights would be great, this fast paced fighting becomes monotonous. Nothing is hard outside of moogle and ifrit which almost everyone has nearly perfected. I have friends who do ifrit and moogle after obtaining all weapons because it is the only thing that offers any sort of challenge. I really hope fights become longer, and at the expense of exp gain.