~Poll~ Longer fights <Do you want it?>

[Andrien]

At least the fights we have now is not brain dead, hack & slash, press X until the monster is dead.

I say leave EXP mobs to exp on so we can EXP Chain. Quest mobs and NM's should be more challenging.

[Rokien]

The fact that you are dodging my point means you need to learn how to be wrong.... I KNOW about ffxi... ffxi is not what it was back in the day, of course its easy to solo the old stuff, duh, everyone knows that.... god. I think the dense one is you here. The fact that you stated, that mob is harder than anything on ffxiv.. here let me go quote it for ya again. "nothing in this game even begins to rival Yogg Saron (WoW) in difficulty. not even remotely close." Yet, it was easily solo able.... Though Ifrit/moogle is impossible to solo, maybe you just need to choose your words better!~ next time you wanna try and argue.

I win!~ Shazzamel


Also, people who go out of their way to state their own accomplishments to try and prove a point.... does not justify the case. In fact it makes it worse.

Also, "and the vast... majority... of us... don't... like... mashing 111111111111? " That's your logic...... Don't bash someone else when you have even more flawed logic.

[fusional]

(deliberately obtuse drivel)

note the dates of the videos posted. pay close attention to the link and video i provided versus yours. note the instance was added in the Wrath of the Lich King expansion, where the level cap was 80. note the video you posted is circa Cataclysm expansion, with a level cap of 85. note the enormous difference in health and damage in the videos. and the guy is in heroic firelands gear- a full 150 item levels higher than ulduar gear (226)...

so what you've basically done is take someone talking about time/level appropriate difficulty in content (say, Nidhogg from Zilart expansion in FFXI, level 75 content) and use a counter example that is absolutely not time/level appropriate (say, a level 95 character in Abyssea gear soloing level 75 Nidhogg). and that is your basis for a difficulty comparison?

this TED talk should be very helpful and informative.

anyway, i have better things to do than argue with a child. continue your petulant, febrile flailing or not. i honestly don't care. enjoy!

[Threads]

I think this discussion is kind of a paradox. It isn't as much about the time it takes to kill a monster as it is about strategy. When your party kills a monster (or in the current state of the game, a group of monsters) before you can use even one single ability then strategy cannot exist.

So how do you introduce strategy back into battles;
1. You increase the length of the battles by (I didn't say it wasn't a factor)
a. You increase a monsters HP.
b. You increase a monsters DEF.
c. You increase a monsters resistance to certain elements or spells.
d. You increase the monsters ability to dodge.
e. You get the idea, etc...

2. You make emnity management key to strategy.

3. You make HP/MP management key to strategy.

4. You make position important to damage and strategy.

5. You improve upon monster AI.
a. Give monsters the ability to strike pre-emptively or anticipate attacks, etc...

6. You require teamwork from players by creating synergies between abilities.
a. Weaponskills, Combos, Battle Regimens, etc...

I think XI had a 'nearly' perfect battle system. I will give you an example. Final Fantasy XI in The Crawler's Nest...

The set-up (or any similar combination)

Ninja, White Mage, Bard, Warrior, Samurai, Thief

Ninja: 'Holy cow! I have to keep shadows up to avoid damage. I have to provoke and do enough damage to keep hate all while the stupid crawler keeps spamming 'slow'.

White Mage: 'Darn it! That stupid crawler won't stop spamming 'slow' and that means I have to keep spamming 'erase'. I also have to keep everyone in the party healed, especially the tank and still have enough MP at the end to keep the pace consistent.

Bard: 'How am I going to keep all these people buffed? I have to keep 'ballad' on the mage. Keep 'madrigal' and 'minuet' on all the damage dealers. Not to mention I have to pull the next monster and 'lullaby' it so it is waiting once the party is done with the first one.'

Warrior: 'Stupid Ninja! We could kill this thing so much faster if he could keep hate from all my weaponskills, traits and abilities.

Samurai: 'I don't think I'm building TP fast enough. I better Meditate and use another weaponskill. Whoops, I pulled hate again. 'Seigan' + 'Third Eye'.

Theif: 'I wish this Samurai could turn the monster so I could get 'Sneak Attack' + 'Trick Attack' on the Ninja so he'd stop loosing hate for a minute.

I really hope I get my point across that it is more than simply timing that needs improving. This might be a lame example but all of these things worked in concert to make partying fun for me.

[Dragon]

I think this discussion is kind of a paradox. It isn't as much about the time it takes to kill a monster as it is about strategy. When your party kills a monster (or in the current state of the game, a group of monsters) before you can use even one single ability then strategy cannot exist.

So how do you introduce strategy back into battles;
1. You increase the length of the battles (I didn't say it wasn't a factor)
a. You increase a monsters HP.
b. You increase a monsters DEF.
c. You increase a monsters resistance to certain elements or spells.
d. You increase the monsters ability to dodge.
e. You get the idea, etc...

2. You make emnity management key to strategy.

3. You make HP/MP management key to strategy.

4. You make position important to damage and strategy.

5. You improve upon monster AI.
a. Give monsters the ability to strike pre-emptively or anticipate attacks, etc...

I think XI had a 'nearly' perfect battle system. I will give you an example. The Crawler's Nest...

The set-up (or any similar combination)

Ninja, White Mage, Bard, Warrior, Samurai, Thief

Ninja: 'Holy cow! I have to keep shadows up to avoid damage. I have to provoke and do enough damage to keep hate all while the stupid crawler keeps spamming 'slow'.

White Mage: 'Darn it! That stupid crawler won't stop spamming 'slow' and that means I have to keep spamming 'erase'. I also have to keep everyone in the party healed, especially the tank and still have enough MP at the end to keep the pace consistent.

Bard: 'How am I going to keep all these people buffed? I have to keep 'ballad' on the mage. Keep 'madrigal' and 'minuet' on all the damage dealers. Not to mention I have to pull the next monster and 'lullaby' it so it is waiting once the party is done with the first one.'

Warrior: 'Stupid Ninja! We could kill this thing so much faster if he could keep hate from all my weaponskills, traits and abilities.

Samurai: 'I don't think I'm building TP fast enough. I better Meditate and use another weaponskill. Whoops, I pulled hate again. 'Seigan' + 'Third Eye'.

Theif: 'I wish this Samurai could turn the monster so I could get 'Sneak Attack' + 'Trick Attack' on the Ninja so he'd stop loosing hate for a minute.

I really hope I get my point across that it is more than simply timing that needs improving. This might be a lame example but all of these things worked in concert to make partying fun for me.

It is a paradox, thank you for pointing it out.

At the end of the day, strategy and tactics require timing to execute. Not even Ifrit lasts long enough for any formula to really be executed (and I'm sure it's the same for Mog King as I've heard that Mog King is inherently easier).

To practice strategy requires a durable enemy; to practice tactics requires a ferocious enemy.

[Malachite]

I think XI had a 'nearly' perfect battle system. I will give you an example. The Crawler's Nest...

Great post, Threads. We can only hope that the developers have something similar in the works. Bring on the strategy!

[Andrien]

Snip

1. You increase the length of the battles by (I didn't say it wasn't a factor)
a. You increase a monsters HP.
b. You increase a monsters DEF.
c. You increase a monsters resistance to certain elements or spells.
d. You increase the monsters ability to dodge.
e. You get the idea, etc...

2. You make emnity management key to strategy.

3. You make HP/MP management key to strategy.

4. You make position important to damage and strategy.

5. You improve upon monster AI.
a. Give monsters the ability to strike pre-emptively or anticipate attacks, etc...

6. You require teamwork from players by creating synergies between abilities.
a. Weaponskills, Combos, Battle Regimens, etc...

Ninja, White Mage, Bard, Warrior, Samurai, Thief

Snip

These kind of analogy will work for party based content. Now in patch version 1.21 and beyond is where I believe the dev team made it clear that each job will fit a specific strategic role to play when players have to band together.

The question reminds, do you want classes to fit these roles when they are designed for mostly solo content? I think a lot of people is probably thinking of FFXI to much. (Which is not a bad or good thing)

[Soukyuu]

The dev team made it clear that each job will fit a specific strategic role to play when players have to band together.

I'm trying to not get my hopes up on that one to be quite honest. Let's hope they will be able to pull it off, but personally, I don't think there will be a role for everyone, or rather, all roles being important enough to warrant not being replaced by the more useful one *coughpglcough*

[Threads]

These kind of analogy will work for party based content. Now in patch version 1.21 and beyond is where I believe the dev team made it clear that each job will fit a specific strategic role to play when players have to band together.

The question reminds, do you want classes to fit these roles when they are designed for mostly solo content? I think a lot of people is probably thinking of FFXI to much. (Which is not a bad or good thing)

I will start by saying that strategy is essential regardless if you play solo or in a party. The dynamics might change a little bit but the rules I list above are not meant to be exclusive to one or the other. I will admit to focusing my remarks towards party play but did not intend to limit them to partying only.

That said, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. It is my understanding that 'Jobs' are essentially 'Classes' optimized for party play. It don't think it means that 'Classes' will no longer be able to party or become meaningless. I could be wrong, I don't know for sure what the developers have planned.

I continue to hope that 'Classes' will be developed as stepping stone, where you learn the basics of your 'Class' with regards to gameplay and strategy. The ultimate goal; evolution into your 'Job'. Since after-all this is an MMO I don't believe solo play should be epitomized in everything. It should be a viable option but not the "be-all-and-end-all".

Regards

[Andrien]

I will start by saying that strategy is essential regardless if you play solo or in a party. The dynamics might change a little bit but the rules I list above are not meant to be exclusive to one or the other. I will admit to focusing my remarks towards party play but did not intend to limit them to partying only.

That said, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. It is my understanding that 'Jobs' are essentially 'Classes' optimized for party play. It don't think it means that 'Classes' will no longer be able to party or become meaningless. I could be wrong, I don't know for sure what the developers have planned.

I continue to hope that 'Classes' will be developed as stepping stone, where you learn the basics of your 'Class' with regards to gameplay and strategy. The ultimate goal; evolution into your 'Job'. Since after-all this is an MMO I don't believe solo play should be epitomized in everything. It should be a viable option but not the "be-all-and-end-all".

Regards

What I'm trying to say is, solo play is an option that we have. Jobs is brand new to us, and it is to my understanding that they specialize in specific roles for large scale content which we both seem to agree on. I'm being optimistic, jobs will really have to shine beyond classes with their exclusive abilities and with other jobs working together. Monsters will have to be the appropriate difficulty for them that will out shine class abilities.

Before patch 1.20 people were soloing Lv60+ monsters, and now it is not so likely common. Ultimately I think people are not considering the fact that there isn't many Lv50 content to choose from right now, and I think that is not a fair reason to adjust petty everyday mobs for grinding on classes either solo or in small parties.