Recognizing parasistic game design decision

[Shougun]

Yes, mandatory participation was not listed as a requirement by Josh, or his sources.

But, the thing is, people like the OP are pointing at minigames and calling them parasitic... However with the definition of "can be removed with affecting the rest of the game", this covers most of FF XIV because as I said, dungeons are the only things that you couldn't get rid of.

As for sucking away form mechanics without adding anything back... There's very little of that. Most of the content exists because of the mechanics, not for them.

The biggest pile of parasitic content on a technical level is the Golden Saucer. Should the Golden Saucer be removed because it's "parasitic", or is it fine because you literally don't ever have to go there if you so choose?

Okay, awesome, thank you for clarifying because I thought I was going mad having watched the video twice lol.

Also I agree with some of your comments on why the definition needs more tweaking, I even like that stipulation that it's less problematic when it's not required (systems that come and go, as fun side games, but because they're not required they're not really parasitic). I think there are a lot of different issues going on that makes the conversation potentially murky almost instantly, like how to clarify if something is abandoned vs "finished". Deep dungeon doesn't need to be updated as it's finished content, and it largely feels that way, meanwhile squadrons feel like they're abandoned and clearly could have content added to them.

Perhaps the video wants to clarify that they could be fun but they ultimately don't add to the game as a whole, such that they're not always 'wrong' but they don't end up adding to the experience as a whole. Given the name parasitic it does make it sound like the only angle to view it as is "Bad", like you never want that design ever. Yet under such thought, I think a lot of systems (given OP video's rules) would fall under not adding them, like wouldn't mini-games?

I just wanted to be clear that I wasn't making an argument by announcing a problem I saw the whole thread given that the OP video, watching it, seeing it does actually qualify some of our systems, and noticed it seems like everyone is using a different meaning for the same catchphrase.

Seemed like we were having unnecessary messes with everyone holding different colored items and saying it was the same thing lol.

[Rosa_Frandlia]

Okay, awesome, thank you for clarifying because I thought I was going mad having watched the video twice lol.

Also I agree with some of your comments on why the definition needs more tweaking, I even like that stipulation that it's less problematic when it's not required (systems that come and go, as fun side games, but because they're not required they're not really parasitic). I think there are a lot of different issues going on that makes the conversation potentially murky almost instantly, like how to clarify if something is abandoned vs "finished". Deep dungeon doesn't need to be updated as it's finished content, and it largely feels that way, meanwhile squadrons feel like they're abandoned and clearly could have content added to them.

Perhaps the video wants to clarify that they could be fun but they ultimately don't add to the game as a whole, such that they're not always 'wrong' but they don't end up adding to the experience as a whole. Given the name parasitic it does make it sound like the only angle to view it as is "Bad", like you never want that design ever. Yet under such thought, I think a lot of systems (given OP video's rules) would fall under not adding them, like wouldn't mini-games?

I just wanted to be clear that I wasn't making an argument by announcing a problem I saw the whole thread given that the OP video, watching it, seeing it does actually qualify some of our systems, and noticed it seems like everyone is using a different meaning for the same catchphrase.

Seemed like we were having unnecessary messes with everyone holding different colored items and saying it was the same thing lol.

I think squadrons may have been abandoned for two reasons after SB. 1) We were on The First, not the Source. 2) As they are only classes, they get no new abilities and were replaced by Trusts with jobs.

Another of course is they don't want us above the rank of Captain (added in SB) and could you really see us taking the rank of being in charge of the whole GC instead of say Pippin?

[Pirana1]

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwHJqXKwRKM

Other sources:
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/co...itic_mechanic/
https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...103-2006-11-06

So Josh Strife Hayes has been really knocking some videos out of the park lately but this one applies to FF14 not nearly to the extent for WoW.

Effectively the best example is borrowed power systems that are put into an expansion that contribute nothing and can quickly be retired and noone would notice.

Some prime examples for FF14 are Diadem, Deep Dungeons and Blue Mage. Now Square Enix has walked a fine line here of making all of these things optional but it is worth it to be educated about this topic.

I personally believe FF14 is approaching a tipping point that WoW hit and took the borrowed power approach to combat ability bloat with obvious horrible consequences.

Gonna get this guy some more subs.. I've been following Hayes for nearly two months now, and even going back to check out some of his older footage, it was enlightening to say the least. Astute analysis and a straight forward approach. Hard to find sometimes.

[Caitlyn]

Dungeon-NPCs: Squadrons was just a test to run dungeons with NPCs and was later finished as the Trust system.
- Remove Squadrons and focus more on the Trust system. Escpecially increasing the EXP because it takes very long to clear a dungeon.

Big instanced areas: Diadem was just a test to having a instanced area where people do stuff. People didnt like it and it was scraped. But then it came back. Eureka and Bozja took that idea and combined it with the relic weapon (for some unknown reasons).
- Remove them. Completely. Nobody wants them and nobody asked for them. What was so wrong to do the relic in the regular open world???

Deep Dungeons: Palace of the Dead was also the test to have randomized dungeons. Heaven on High continued it but never improved it.
- Make Heaven on High more appealing. Those big rooms are ugly and useless.

Monster Hunting: The monster log was the predecessor of the daily hunt system.
- Continue the monster log from ARR.

Ishgardian Restoration: Mor Dhona, Doma and the Ixali beast tribe were its predecessor.
- it would be nice if you re not restricted to get into an area, because its full

Other old and forgotten features:
Levequests was introduced in ARR for all classes, but thrown away for DoW with Stormblood. Same goes for Grand Company ranks, your Chocobo and Limited Jobs (only BLU exists...). Glamour is now a weird hybrid between the old prism system and the new glamour dresser system.
- Bring levequests back. Give grand companies a meaning. And please please please please improve your glamour system! More slots in the dresser!



SE should stop adding more and more features. I deeply hope they will clean up FFXIV and rework or remove old systems. I m already at a point where I m pretty confused after taking a longer break and then coming back.

[Shougun]

I think squadrons may have been abandoned for two reasons after SB. 1) We were on The First, not the Source. 2) As they are only classes, they get no new abilities and were replaced by Trusts with jobs.

Another of course is they don't want us above the rank of Captain (added in SB) and could you really see us taking the rank of being in charge of the whole GC instead of say Pippin?

Everything are belong to me... all the bases... Farwell Pippin.... >:3

Hehe. For the reasons I'm sure trusts had an element to it, but it doesn't make squadrons feel any less abandoned because of it. Personally I think they should make trusts from early on, remove perhaps the leveling mechanic, but add in other progression systems (like squadron had tactics, even chemistry the ideas could move across although perhaps they could be romanticized a little like brother sister chemistry is a special default, and you can unlock them through playing the game etc, and "select" chemistries from there), perhaps multiple types of progression like AI tweaking unlocks, can pick X ability or Y ability (and if earned both choose to pick a different setup later), and then preparedness type ratings that have a general ilevel like effect (so if you're level 50 and farm a bunch of cool ability unlocks or whatever as soon as you hit 70 and do your first shb dungeon your trust isn't already god, yet you could rank up preparedness like an ilvl which just boosts your whole team, higher preparedness giving them food buffs, access to potions, etc). Then there are npc specific growth and global growth, which can act as a nice balance opportunity and progression of content (meanwhile obviously the general global growth can have caps tied to your max level / story, so you don't fly past a point that turns the difficulty into cheese).

Then Squadrons can be moved into a clearly their own type of content (trusts are for progression of main content), squadrons are for "x". One idea was like having a semi-Dynasty Warrior set up, besides using open world zones as large instanced battle spaces, perhaps you go into old dungeons, go to outposts, etc, and help your GC (old dungeon as in the lore you've already gone through and killed out the old enemies, now new monsters have invaded or you need to finish clean up, your GC may even build outposts in some areas which unlock you new features of content, like an outpost in the lava dungeon may provide you a new recipe / upgraded furnace in your GC areas (and island sanctuary when unlocked) that helps with certain actions. A lot less passive version of what you might see in some control the table modes in other games (including WoW garrisons, those are passive where you just send them out like a retainer), here you'd get to lead your group and appear a bit of a lord among your generals, as you go in and fight screen filling numbers of monsters lol. These systems I thought could also be built up in unison of making Hamlet content for FCs, as it would lore and mechanically potentially get use logically (GC being a sort of company). So while FC are full building a hamlet and defending it, and attacking strongholds as a team with far more difficult less swarm like numbers, your GC would be building up your GC garrison, helping your GC (as a FC-garrison-lite), and utilizing some similar systems.

Another was maybe player owned airship (your crew for your ship), can go around as a GC-sanctioned pirate or something lol. Then there is a unique content, again like the above idea, dedicated to them. Meanwhile trusts, which have far more lore wiggle room anyways and are pretty just a cool thing to experience given the story potential, move into the MSQ type content. Like, as may happen in the future, if you got to do your Praetorium with Cid would be awesome, but it would be a little less awesome if it was your squadron (not terrible, just having context lore characters making context lore comments and just generally fitting the setting and having logical actions for it... well that sounds good).

Not to say I don't know why they went trusts over squadrons, just that it's clearly, at least imo, an abandoned system that feels like a dangling appendage with fleeting purpose. Would like to have it remixed to have lasting purpose, and the better ideas of squadron married to trusts- as such that trusts just generally will work better and have more exciting progression (like currently squadrons that are maxed are just more powerful than trust members, in the feeling they give, I get you don't want trusts to go too fast, but it would be better imo to move away from the level system and go into things like unlocking special skills, combos, and general stat buff concepts).

[Bacent]

Dungeon-NPCs:
Big instanced areas:
Deep Dungeons:
Monster Hunting:

Ishgardian Restoration:

Other old and forgotten features:

I agree with the trusts being better than squadron. We didn't have the scions going with us in the earlier dungeons though and adding them to those dungeons would be a little odd personally. The low level dungeons are for lower level content, when people are usually much newer. The squadron kind of eels like you're with a bunch of new people, though it does need some rework (Like being able to have them ignore enemies you put the ignore marker on and such)

Eureka just had the relic shoehorned on in, and the playerbase was really split on it. It got somewhat better in the later areas, but it wasn't enough to make me like it. You had to focus on ONLY your relic stuff and nothing else in there, so it's forced content for people that wanted a relic. It felt like FFXI 2.0, which many people didn't want, by a percentage of the community enjoyed enough to make discords dedicated to it. It didn't reach out to as many people as they had hoped though most likely.

Bozja was handled much better though, and they even added in the echo for when the instance is small, same for the bigger duties there so even small parties can handle it. They even made it an area to LEVEL UP FROM 71 UNTIL 80. Since they couldn't fit in a 5.X version of PotD/HoH that was incorporated well enough so don't say 'nobody wants them and nobody asked for them', that's just acting like your opinion is fact.

Would have liked a Deep Dungeon for 5.X but with covid terrorizing the world it's understandable that their own plans were greatly delayed, with some even being scrapped. Glad it was semi added to Bozja for people leveling so they could better multi-task/make use of their time. Maybe we'll get a new one for 6.X, fingers crossed

Monster Hunting is basically the Hunt Marks now. You can get daily/weekly currency from them and some EXP as well. Making it one time for each class again feels kind of pale in comparison. It needs some re-working though for older content personally...

Restoration needed instances.

Blue Mage isn't really 'old and forgotten'. They get 1-2 content boost per expansion, and they can usually be used in some more recent content (Like doing into old instances for relic parts and the like). I would like some more unique stuff compared to the Masked Carnivale though. The fact it's 'do this fight one exact way or lose' kind of feels meh. More so when you have some personal issues, like I go into sensory overload fast, needed a friend in call with me to call out certain things for me or I couldn't do one of the fights.

Levequests were decent-ish to help new players learn about some mechanics, but some were just thrown out/never used in some content. Like only time we ever had to 'lower enemy HP to X%' is when catching them for a sidequest or the like. They could have been expanded a bit more.

Glamour is what it is right now, and I think it's safe to assume unless they state they're doing something to it during an expansion drop, they won't really be doing anything much with it.

Also you can't learn what direction to go from just sticking to the same ol' same ol' and new ideas are needed to see what the playerbase likes. If they stopped adding new features, I think the game would get stale.

[Rosenstrauch]

I don't understand where this desire to have evergreen content removed from the game comes from, nor how it could possibly be to the developer's benefit to do so.

Simply not touching Squadrons ever again has no serious cost to the developers. Removing them, however, would waste precious man hours that would be better spent adding something instead. The same goes for Diadem, Eureka, and Bozja.

[Shougun]

I don't understand where this desire to have evergreen content removed from the game comes from, nor how it could possibly be to the developer's benefit to do so.

Simply not touching Squadrons ever again has no serious cost to the developers. Removing them, however, would waste precious man hours that would be better spent adding something instead. The same goes for Diadem, Eureka, and Bozja.

If we are using the video squadron wouldn't be evergreen, as it was abandoned system for trusts.

[Tulzscha]

To summarize what happened to WoW: imagine if relic farming was part of MSQ and if you didn't made it, then you would never have enough DPS/Tank/Heal capacity to be called for an endgame instance. But, if you made it, for the next expansion all your progress is gone.

Except said relic can be in any gear slot so naturally players would make them for the slots with the most stats because they have a higher ilvl, then next patch SE comes out with special gear for those slots which also require extra farming to upgrade making everyone refarm relics for different slots. Hope you like farming repetitive boring content!

Yep that's exactly what happened in WoW.

Effectively the best example is borrowed power systems that are put into an expansion that contribute nothing and can quickly be retired and noone would notice.

Some prime examples for FF14 are Diadem, Deep Dungeons and Blue Mage. Now Square Enix has walked a fine line here of making all of these things optional but it is worth it to be educated about this topic.

I personally believe FF14 is approaching a tipping point that WoW hit and took the borrowed power approach to combat ability bloat with obvious horrible consequences.

No, no, and no.

Borrowed power is when your character temporarily gains power from something other than their job/class. In Legion there were special weapons that granted bonus abilities and were retired at the end of the expac. BFA had artifacts giving extra abilities through certain pieces of armor for BFA only. In Shadowlands there are covenants that grant extra abilities for this expansion only. Every one of these things affected how your class played everywhere for the duration of the expansion, thus they contributed a lot and are very much noticed when removed.

Diadem is bonus content for gatherers and crafters, is relevant for leveling as well as obtaining cosmetics and some useful items. Deep dungeons are their own thing, relevant for leveling and seeing job abilities beyond your current lvl as well as obtaining cosmetics and stuff. Yeah you get extra abilities in there but it's more like Torghast. Blue Mage is side content, completely optional for anyone who wants to do it, again with cosmetic rewards. None of these give your character power for endgame; arguably BLU makes farming low lvl stuff faster for relics but that's it, it's also an entirely different job.

WoW uses borrowed power as an extra way to keep classes fresh every expansion without having to worry about bloat and allow for further customization, and are a balancing nightmare. Side content is not borrowed power. The closest things FFXIV has to borrowed power are Eureka and Bozja which have you playing your job as normal + extra bonuses but said bonuses only apply in those areas unlike WoW's bonuses which apply everywhere so it's still not the same and is largely optional, even when making a relic in ShB you can do most of the work outside of Bozja, or you can work on a relic for one job while leveling another.

FFXIV and WoW are also different games, FF has a lot of side content in general, honestly everything is optional and you're free to do whatever. WoW funnels everyone towards the same endgame and whatever side content they have in any given expansion mainly serves to push players towards that same goal rather than simply being a fun optional thing to do when you're bored with the grind - in WoW it's all part of the grind.

FFXIV is just starting to feel the pressure of bloat having already pruned and reworked many jobs, we'll have to wait and see how they deal with it.

All this said borrowed power and parasitic game design aren't necessarily bad, it just means having something unique for an expansion that's replaced with something else from the next. It's disliked in WoW because it tends to come with massive grinds and terrible systems. Covenant abilities themselves are fine, how they're implemented is a different story.

Parasitic design does tend to waste a lot of design time when devs constantly throw away what they make, FF has been pretty good about that so far. You can always head over to Eureka for relic glamours/Ozma mount/whatever, are you ever going to go back and do a Warfront in WoW? Island Expeditions? Garrisons? MoP farm? Timeless Isle or any of its clones? They haven't been updated to maintain relevance and don't have many rewards people would want so it's basically dead content. Which just means at any given point of time in the future there will be that much less to do. I don't see that being a problem in FF for a while.

[Shougun]

Garrisons?

I still feel including including this particular content greatly disrupts the value of the discussion. If Garrisons fit into parasitic design then so too do squadrons, and perhaps some other content. It makes more sense for speaking specifically about borrowed power since it's something that is basically stolen away from you, a reaaaaaalll waste of your time when you get to the end of it all.

Garrisons still offer means to make gold and have unique items, achievements, and such to them (even if the amount of gold is far less than it was back when it was causing economic disruption). If such a system, that is obviously abandoned, though apparently also nerfed a bit afterwards (kicking one while down), counts, then a lot of stuff people are saying don't should if we're being fair.

Just seems a little odd people are going off on other games with systems that FFXIV does have. Though honestly it seems like, minus the kicking a system while it's down.. a lot of games has this. Sometimes they're appreciated I think, but obviously one might say their resources might have been better spent if they spun back into the game. Whatever, not trying to focus on that bit right now in the post.

The video also goes on to discuss Warframe's systems, which are absolutely in line with some of the systems FFXIV uses. Some people call them content islands, of course certain islands in warframe are more egregious than others. Maybe railjack or related flying things being worse compared to the core game, but say Eureka gear (besides looks) has no real application to the rest of the game. Of course one would say cosmetics and exp are important! Which they can be, everyone knows glamour is the real end game, and defends FFXIV's systems, but then immediately going back to some of the stuff people call parasitic design for WoW and Warframe. You could pull them out of that title by the fact many of them too offer things like exp and cosmetics. . . .

Just seems like people are slapping oil all over the surface and angling the plates in the direction that favors their game ;/