Botting: Good or Evil? lol

[kaynide]

1) you asked several questions in what was an already longwinded post. I answered if I supported them or not. I don’t care about your question if they were suddenly allowed because it’s a dumb question.

I am not obligated to respond to some specific part of your post.

2) I gave my opinion. You can take it or leave it. I don’t know why you think it’s a debate or that I’m supposed to convince you of something.

3) again, incredibly rude. There is nothing else to discuss here. Either you are fishing to make an argument or you genuinely don’t realize how rude you are being to people. I will assume the later and wish you a good day.

[Arrhin]

Bots and myself have a contentious relationship, my first summer job as a kid was selling Gold in WoW and I used bots, bought my first car with the money I made. I know people who have used MMO RMT with bots to help bridge the gap in rent and university bills. In the end I do not think this is a simple black and white issue in the sense from the consumer, I do agree that it is against the rules, but I also do not blame people for taking their chance when it comes to breaching those rules especially when SE is fairly lax with their enforcement when someone follows certain steps.

I know many will disagree but it is not the responsibility of the players to follow the rules simply because they are the rules, in an ideal world sure that is how it works but in the real world if a party wants someone to follow rules be it the government, parents, company etc . . . They need to actively enforce said rules across the board not when it only becomes an inconvenience to them.

If this is your world view then just wow, like WOW. Morals be damned, who cares who I **** over. Me, me , me, I , I , I. FYI, the more you bot (and I bet you do) the more resources you take from the development of the game for your "enforcement". So next time people complain about content drought just know that the GM payroll costs money and it's coming out of the same budget....

[Jojoya]

I hear you on most of your points and essentially agree. I do wish they'd change things, like housing. From what I have seen and heard, many players are griping about it and hoping for changes. Hopefully they get to it. That said, let me point back at this one section of what you mentioned. I think it's where I was discussing in my pros and cons. Some of the things really doesn't have impacts on anyone else's game experience. Like if Ruru used macros to do Ishgard Restoration crafting so they can level up their crafter. How does that help or hurt you? Does it impact you at all?

Macros are part of the game, not a third party tool. They're part of the limited automation SE has built into the game.

You still need to be present to start synthesis on the recipe then start the macro. You're going to have to use manual input at least every 45 seconds if not more often. You're not going to be able to walk away for 2 hours and come back to a stack of finished collectables.

Someone using a third party tool to bot can walk away for that two hours.

One is allowed by the game. One isn't. Playing by the rules is what makes the game experience fair for everyone.

Is using Razer Synapse, iCue etc etc botting then?

Depends on if you're using the programmable functions to do things that could not be duplicated using an in-game macro.

Bots in FF14 are TAME compared to some games.

In ESO when first launched, bots could be seen FLYING IN THE AIR across maps. Moving and killing underground in plain sight. Teleporting up through 3 storey buildings. Blatant teleporting to each node to harvest.

Ugh.

That was also happening here at the start of Shadowbringers. It took a while for SE to counter whatever they were doing so they were no longer flying in trains across the sky in various places.

Just because you perceive it to be more of a problem in other games doesn't mean it's not a problem here.

Camping the placards just is screwed up.

So don't camp the placards. It's not how players were intended to do it. Even resorting to a bot doesn't guarantee you'll get the plot. Plenty of players have managed to get a plot despite the presence of someone using a bot or auto-click scrip.

Macros pushing buttons for you = botting.

In-game macros are part of the game. SE controls what we can or cannot accomplish using them.

Macros that are created by using third party tools are outside of SE's control and may do things that SE does not want players to do. Therefore they are not allowed.

It shouldn't be difficult to understand that

[Awha]

If this is your world view then just wow, like WOW. Morals be damned, who cares who I **** over. Me, me , me, I , I , I. FYI, the more you bot (and I bet you do) the more resources you take from the development of the game for your "enforcement". So next time people complain about content drought just know that the GM payroll costs money and it's coming out of the same budget....

Before anything else why should I care about what people complain about?

Secondly the reality is that is how the world works everything is a balancing act like it or not my way of thinking is not foriegn or unheard of. We all are guilty of breaking rules when it is convenient for us and we know the chances of getting caught are slim.

[Dragonblanco]

Macros are part of the game, not a third party tool. They're part of the limited automation SE has built into the game.

You still need to be present to start synthesis on the recipe then start the macro. You're going to have to use manual input at least every 45 seconds if not more often. You're not going to be able to walk away for 2 hours and come back to a stack of finished collectables.

Someone using a third party tool to bot can walk away for that two hours.

One is allowed by the game. One isn't. Playing by the rules is what makes the game experience fair for everyone.

In-game macros are part of the game. SE controls what we can or cannot accomplish using them.

Macros that are created by using third party tools are outside of SE's control and may do things that SE does not want players to do. Therefore they are not allowed.

It shouldn't be difficulty to understand that

So what you quoted me on was me responding to you when you were saying it shouldn't be allowed because it impacts other players. The example I gave was of using third party macros to do Ishgard Restoration, which many do. You create a game macro for the things, then set Razer Synapse or other programs to keep it going. It doesn't take from the economy, it doesn't really give that player a benefit over others, etc. So it was just a comparison.

That said, I already know about macros and botting. If you've read my many responses in trying to educate people, you'll see where I've fully described what they are, how they work, acknowledged what is and isn't allowed by ToS, quoted what is said to be gray areas because they can't monitor what is on our computers, and so much more. Yet, none of that was that my forum post here was supposed to be about. I didn't ask for definitions or what is allowed by SE. I asked what players personally think about botting, what the pros and cons of them are, and if they (you) would bot IF SE were to suddenly modify ToS and say all players would be allowed to use those programs?

[QooEr]

If this is your world view then just wow, like WOW. Morals be damned, who cares who I **** over. Me, me , me, I , I , I.

who is a botter bleeping over, realistically?* i have quite a few friends who use bots and literally all they use them for is to gather/craft stuff for raid like food and pots, and then they share it with the static.

The more contentious one was this girl who also liked to sell gil to random people she knew. but again, who is she ***ing over by doing that?

Bots arent inherently evil and "rules" arent inherently righteous. Also a rule is effectively meaningless is nobody enforces it.

*i know theres some hardcore rmt botters that probably make a lot of money and are involved in stuff like tax evasion, but that is merely a subset and its clear where the wrongful action is.

FYI, the more you bot (and I bet you do) the more resources you take from the development of the game for your "enforcement". So next time people complain about content drought just know that the GM payroll costs money and it's coming out of the same budget....

ah yes the literal Four people that deal with bots have such a fat salary that they had to cut ultimate and deep dungeons and other stuff... right.

[Roeshel]

And I'd much rather have bots than anti-cheat software. That stuff wrecks computers, and is just a haven for hackers...

I don't understand this. Why wouldn't you want anti-cheat software? How does it wreck your PC? SE being intrusive is not that big of a deal, your government already has access to everything you have online and your electronic devices. Personal space and online security are just an illusion created to keep people from growing too restless about being monitored constantly.

Your quote is the same as saying, I'd much rather have dumb online criminals than police specialized in preventing cyber-crime.

[Jojoya]

The example I gave was of using third party macros to do Ishgard Restoration, which many do. You create a game macro for the things, then set Razer Synapse or other programs to keep it going. It doesn't take from the economy, it doesn't really give that player a benefit over others, etc.

Except it does give that player a huge advantage over others. It does take from the economy. You do know that scrip can be converted into items to sell on the MB, don't you?

Someone who automates that via third party tools gets to spend their time doing other things. They can run it while they sleep or they're at work then spend their normally limited game time doing other content.

Someone who only uses the in game macro that requires manual input to restart the macro each time does not. They have to make choices about whether they use their limited game time on the Restoration or on other content.

Please, just stop with the bad rationalizations on why it's okay to cheat. It's not.

If you've read my many responses in trying to educate people, you'll see where I've fully described what they are, how they work, acknowledged what is and isn't allowed by ToS, quoted what is said to be gray areas because they can't monitor what is on our computers, and so much more.

There are no grey areas here.

Use of third party tools to automate game play is not allowed.

Those who choose to do so are cheating and are subject to ban if caught. That simple. Just because someone does not get caught does not make it okay to do.

[Dragonblanco]

I don't understand this. Why wouldn't you want anti-cheat software? How does it wreck your PC? SE being intrusive is not that big of a deal, your government already has access to everything you have online and your electronic devices. Personal space and online security are just an illusion created to keep people from growing too restless about being monitored constantly.

Your quote is the same as saying, I'd much rather have dumb online criminals than police specialized in preventing cyber-crime.

I was going to answer as best I can with my own words, but I think it might be easier to refer you to good sites with articles on it. The short of it though is because they require a lot of access, can kill your computer, prevents another entryway to your own computer for online criminals to use, and can be an invasion of privacy. But if you do have time, check out the links below.

https://techplanet.today/post/the-bi...ware-in-gaming

https://levvvel.com/what-is-kernel-l...heat-software/

https://afkgaming.com/esports/news/3...-your-computer

Then different type, more of a history on anti-cheat I guess, that highlights the issue with why stopping cheating is so difficult :

https://superjumpmagazine.com/the-an...ce-c19343be1dd

[Awha]

I do not agree with their approach but if we are all being honest with ourselves with SE's lack of enforcement it does create an environment with more reasons to cheat verse not.

I get cheating is bad but let us be real an action in itself being wrong is moot that does bit stop people from doing the action. Active enforcement and other actions to disincentivize someone from cheating.