Open World PvP

[SturmChurro]

Playing a pvp server on WoW for one expansion sucked bad enough, thanks.

I keep seeing this. So why did you (and others) roll on a PvP server in the first place?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Yes, when criticism is applicable. Not when the game is still in early testing stages. Criticism should also be done only when theres been ample research done for whatever you are critiquing. Yes, LazyPeon's video was poorly done. If you look at my other posts where i've mentioned him, i agree it was bias against 14. That said however...



It doesnt matter the context. Death threats and doxxing isnt good period. It doesnt matter what the person did,because as weve seen in the Scottzone sitatuon, someone can give the tiniest piece of criticism and still be doxxed and get death threats from this community. These are only the two big people its happened to. There've been smaller ones as well.

Criticism is valid whenever a game is in a playable state for testing. I played the "pre-alpha" for Ashes at Pax Prime like.... 2 or 3 years ago. It should be beyond "no criticism stage" by now. The game is outside of the significant design change stage of its development. Just like XIV was during 1.0s alpha and beta. Those criticisms to 1.0 during those stages were definitely valid.

In fact, its the best time to provide criticism, in case there is even the slightest chance of fixing major issues.

[linayar]

This whole thread is the definition of XIV community

Yep, a great community where people have different opinions and can express their disagreements with each other and still be part of the community.

[van_arn]

Yep, a great community where people have different opinions and can express their disagreements with each other and still be part of the community.

Until someone steps in and says "go back to wow." It happens, and I don't like it.

I'm happy to see so many new players popping in on the forums and ingame, and I want to see them keep coming. I especially hope they all have a blast with the game.

[linayar]

Until someone steps in and says "go back to wow." It happens, and I don't like it.

Meh, that's their opinion, but it's also a valid choice. I tried WoW for a year and went back to FFXIV, but I don't regret having played WoW. People have different preferences, and if your preference is something that another game already does well, it becomes an option.

I'm happy to see so many new players popping in on the forums and ingame, and I want to see them keep coming. I especially hope they all have a blast with the game.

Agreed, but I also understand FFXIV won't be for everyone, so I'd rather it be for me than not for me.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

Yes, when criticism is applicable. Not when the game is still in early testing stages. Criticism should also be done only when theres been ample research done for whatever you are critiquing. Yes, LazyPeon's video was poorly done. If you look at my other posts where i've mentioned him, i agree it was bias against 14. That said however...

I'm looking forward to Ashes- which is why I'd rather have criticism be allowed- it does look to be bad form when people saying that Ashes isn't subject to criticism also lament that FFXIV players don't allow criticism. I'd even say that early testing is when criticism is most valuable because it gives the most time for there to be fixes. Should a game be panned and declared a failure in alpha/beta? No- but criticized? Absolutely.

As for players in FFXIV- or people using the internet in general- when there's millions of players, and a few of those are extremely awful people- can a great community do anything to stop them? I don't think it's possible. The community can set the tone of what's acceptable- now, if people were doxxing, threatening, casting slurs, stalking openly, harassing people on the forums, etc like we get in WoW... and the community was joining in, that'd be different.

If we had a situation like we did in WoW where the top guild doxx'd/threatened players in classic and got no punishment from Blizz and no real community pushback- a situation where we know who did it and nobody really cared- I think that'd be very concerning.

But do we know who threatened the streamers? If they're even in our community and not the streamers? (Asmon, for example, has a group of very vitriolic people who stalk him with ill intent in his own community, as seen from his encounters with stream sniping in Classic)

Can the community stop those people from making threats? That's always the most important question- what can the community do? Because we aren't all powerful, there are things we as a community can do to make a game far more welcoming, and streamers/SE having zero tolerance for toxicity (watch Zepla's latest vid, she makes it very clear she won't stand for it) are things we can do to make it better. But realistically, nobody can stop individuals from doing awful things. That doesn't make a community bad, that just means that a community can't solve every problem.

And I think when you have a community that tries hard to be as positive, welcoming and friendly as possible and most love that aspect of the community- and people keep saying the community is awful because there's a few people who do awful things in it, of course people will be unhappy with that.

Cuz nobody is happy with being blamed for something they didn't do, are against, and have no control over.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Criticism is valid whenever a game is in a playable state for testing. I played the "pre-alpha" for Ashes at Pax Prime like.... 2 or 3 years ago. It should be beyond "no criticism stage" by now. The game is outside of the significant design change stage of its development. Just like XIV was during 1.0s alpha and beta. Those criticisms to 1.0 during those stages were definitely valid.

In fact, its the best time to provide criticism, in case there is even the slightest chance of fixing major issues.

I agree with you to a degree. I do think its best to critique a game fairly early on because like you said, major issues should be brought to attention as early as possible.The thing i kind of disagree with though is critiquing something without having the full picture. They themselves have said the pvp gameplay and such is something theyre spending a lot of time on. I dont really have a problem with the money nor the time its taking for the mmo to come out because i would rather they take thei time and fine tune things instead of rush it out. I will say the money thing did weird me out at first and almost put me off, but when i saw how dedicated the devs were it kind of put me at ease. I take solace int he fact that they're major nerds and they genuinely do seem to want to create the "perfect" mmo that makes everyone of all different content types happy. A bold effort to be sure but not one i'd say will die off so soon. Im certainly more interested and curious in how it goes that its actually taken my hype away from 6.0.

[linayar]

Problem is this whole discussion is not "expression of disagreements" it's just making up buzzwords to push your hidden agenda. Both of the groups argue in a very weird way for or against wopvp, it's not even arguing it's just self reassuring justification they make themselves to protect their world view.
The first group is clearly scared of the challenge wopvp would bring (be it social or whatever) but this challenge is not real it's manufactured by their own fear of whatever scary movie they made for themselves. So they throw away buzzwords like "griefing" (which isn't real if for example you yourself "turn pvp on", just don't turn it on, just an example) "toxicity" just to push this scary movie they created. But this movie is still very detached from reality. And even if it wasn't detached from reality the thing that will have final say in this is the data on pvp activity not some movie someone produced inside their head.
The other group for some reason needs to justify that killing others is fun. Which is just fact. Challenging other players is fun. Completely destroying lower level player is fun. It's why people smurf in very competitive games. You shouldn't have to argue for this it's a fact. It's how human lizard brain works. Arguing for it or against it makes zero sense.

Making up buzzwords like "human lizard brain?"

Calling something fun is not a statement of fact, but a statement of opinion, which may be factually true for the one who says it, but does not exempt it from being the subject of an argument.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Making up buzzwords like "human lizard brain?"

Calling something fun is not a statement of fact, but a statement of opinion, which may be factually true for the one who says it, but does not exempt it from being the subject of an argument.

My favorite bit is the "clearly scared of the challenge wopvp brings" followed by "its fun completely destroying low level players" what challenge is that?

[linayar]

My favorite bit is the "clearly scared of the challenge wopvp brings" followed by "its fun murdering low level players" what challenge is that?

It's probably challenge for the low level players, so they should not fear being challenged in service of the fun of higher level players.

Understandably, some people would disagree, and thus would express their disagreement.