Revelations from Patch 5.5 (Part 2)

[Lauront]

I know that some folks really want there to be some disastrous downside to the Ancients' world or their way of life but, to be frank... between Emet's Selch's illusory Amaurot and the short stories set during that era, nothing has ever been shown to even suggest this is the case. The worst thing anyone can say about them is that, despite being nigh-immortal demigods in their own right, the Ancients were still every bit as human as their successors races.

They weren't creatively sterile—at least two sidequests in Amaurot were dedicated to showing their efforts to create, along with the entirety of two level 80 dungeons (Akadaemia Anyder and Anamnesis Anyder). They weren't infertile, either—they mistake the WoL and friends for children upon our arrival to Amaurot, something that wouldn't make much sense if they didn't know what a child was or couldn't have them. Hell, one of the most popular takes on Elidibus's character is that he was a literal child (he's never called as such, but that scene near the end of 5.3 does suggest the possibility). They weren't a cult of evil conformists who reacted to any display of individuality with murder or brainwashing. And yes, I have seen that take before and it's as ludicrous as it sounds.

Is it really that hard to accept that—whatever nefarious things the Ascians are up to now—the people they once were didn't deserve to be driven to extinction?

I find myself asking the same question. Perhaps people are now too used to the rather hackneyed concept that higher beings must be brought down in some way because they're simply too powerful, too conceited or whatever (not much different IMO to the constant doom mongering we hear about modern technological advancement from some quarters), but I don't really see it as implied in the lore, and in any case, I would not see potential stagnation as adequate reason to sunder the entire star or for them to simply "move on" from their entire civilisation being wiped out. To the point that such a theme, including anything resembling 7's "cries of the Planet", would simply ring hollow with me.

With 5.2 as well as 5.3 and Elidibus's story and their events now concluded, my thoughts lean towards the entire war of light and dark being two well-intentioned parties entrenched in their position, itself born of a tragic event that hit a highly advanced society out of the blue, reducing it almost back to where it began without intervention.

In any case, I thought their interview commentary here was quite good:

DAILY STAR - Talking of the story, what was your personal favourite while going through the expansion?

Yoshida - That’s a tough question, being in the development team, I’m involved with lots of adjustment and tweaking during creations, so I see all the cut-scenes and while in development I give feedback on if a cut-scene should be bringing up the tension in certain parts. I had to play Shadowbringers four times, so it’s hard to have one favourite part.

If I needed to pick one, there is a scene after you complete a dungeon in a cave where you see the murals that is the dream that the ancients saw which is about the war between Hydaelyn and Zodiark. Emet-Selch takes the whole party to the cave and talks about the war and Y’sthola, and other NPCs were surprised by his revelation about what had happened. This struck really hard to me.

This scene is really underlining the story of Shadowbringers. Everyone is in a different position, the view of winners will be different to those that have lost, and the truth that they may tell will also be different. There is not really any point in arguing who is right or wrong but what is really important is to understand that there are so many views, and we need to accept it; how can we move forward by us understanding each other.

That was more just for Shadowbringers, but it’s also a common theme through Eorzea and FFXIV. What Emet-Selch was expressing is his view that ‘this is my opinion not requiring approval from anyone because this is what I believe’. He doesn’t even reject what Haydelin is saying, he just accepts it. What he expressed in that scene was ‘how great ancients are and the deep understanding they have with people who have different opinions to themselves.

As was this:

Q: With each new expansion new themes are introduced and are focused on. How does the team decide on which themes to focus on with each new expansion?

Naoki Yoshida: The major themes for the expansion would be first conveyed from me as the game’s director to the development team. Although it is somewhat difficult to describe my personal decision-making process it could be summarised as [requiring a sense of] surprise and fun. This contains a dual meaning in that I assess whether as developers ourselves we would encounter surprises while enjoying the production process, at the same time as considering whether the story of the expansion would be exciting and fun for the players. In the last expansion Shadowbringers, I had thought that players must have grown tired of being referred to as a Warrior of Light. I also came up with the idea of reversing the conventional notion of light equating to justice or something holy and darkness equating to evil or something bad to generate a sense of surprise.

The current state of global affairs is incredibly complex and simple two-dimensional theories of good/bad from ancient times can no longer quantify this world we live in. As such, a large factor [that contributed to the selection of these themes] is that I thought I could cultivate new values and a new sense of realisation within myself by changing perspective and carefully considering the other party’s arguments in regard to a given event. Half of the time these things are born from one’s intuition and flashes of inspiration. I guessed as much but it really is hard to explain. (laughs)

...and of course this:

Joel Couture, Siliconera: What inspired the storyline of Shadowbringers? What interested you in exploring how fine the line can be between good and evil?

Naoki Yoshida: Even in modern-day life, people already hold different views on where to draw the line between good and evil. The same can be said when you look back on history, in which the claims of those who emerged victorious were deemed to be right, whereas those who lost were wrong. However, with developments in culture and education, everyone knows that the world doesn’t work in a simple “good is right and evil is wrong” sort of way—I believe the world of Shadowbringers is a representation of that very idea.

What thoughts went into creating Emet-Selch’s backstory and character? What feelings did you want the player to go through as they journeyed with and ultimately fought against him?

Yoshida: One big goal we had in this story was to have players understand the Ascians. In order to do so, Emet-Selch needed to be not just an enemy, but a character that tries to understand the protagonist, the Scions, and the masses.

During development, we never really anticipate or try to predict what kind of emotions players would feel towards certain characters or the story. We feel it is more important for us to think about what kind of ideas and principles to depict rather than what kind of emotions we would like to evoke through exploring said ideas.

Shadowbringers may leave players feeling emotionally conflicted at its end. What interested you about making players feel a bit unsure about whether they’re doing the right thing?

Yoshida: I touched on this in a previous answer as well, but I would be delighted if Final Fantasy XIV served as a catalyst for people to ponder about themselves, their surroundings, parents, siblings, friends, and society, instead of holding onto the idea that good is rewarded and evil is punished. That said, we are entertainers, not philosophers—our greatest joy would be for players to enjoy the game, one way or another.

It's such an obvious repression metaphor. I mean, really. Like, wowza.

Everyone's basically pressured into looking and acting the same, and while they all superficially attest to open freedom of expression, the very nature of their society constrains it to within certain "acceptable" bounds. And then Hydaelyn comes and splits the world in such a way that people can no longer hide who they really are, and the few survivors of the past age go on a rampage and lament the "good old days" when they weren't constantly confronted with the differences of others. Like all of that was acceptable, of course, but only when they didn't have to think about it.

Almost all societal conduct is founded on "repression" to some extent, mostly because it facilitates mutual cooperation to do so (=is a method of establishing boundaries), and yes, they choose to channel their individuality and talents in specific ways. It makes perfect sense for a race endowed with their capabilities, and perhaps one they adopted after harsh experience taught them so. Further worth noting the English framing of it is rather particular, in referring to the Amaurotine as "patronising", whereas the French goes with "well meaning" or "kindly" (=charitable.)

Beyond that, Amaurot is implied to have held itself to a high standard (as per the dialogue of newly initiated citizens, particularly notable in the German edition; thanks to Neila Nuruodo for these), so perhaps it was simply the price of living there. None of it really strikes me as an adequate reason to conclude they were going to collapse anyway, much less to justify sundering the star.



Given what we are now seeing with Fandaniel, I am more minded to believe something or someone had studied them well enough to understand how to bring them down should it exploit their anxieties by letting them, and by implication their creation magicks, run amok, and may have done so via the precipitating sound.

[BlitzAceRush]

I don't think they needed to be "brought low" though I also don't really see them as "higher beings" just another form of life that met an end they really didn't deserve. For me it just comes down to the means to return them, I get the devs have said the world is unstable, they're allowed to say that but we've no idea the context of said damage, as this is an MMO and our character and the world can't be destroyed, which is what the rejoining would mean, if whatever instability the sundering caused is revealed, we'd have to be able to fix without re-joining any shards, or it would have to be inconsequential enough that the world would be able to continue on with it like it has for the past 12000 years, or like Y'shtola's eyes it might just be an abandoned plot point we'll never hear about again.

Moving on, people talk a lot about FFIV's influence but I wouldn't be surprised if we've got a FFX style Yu Yevon entity in the background that was what observed the Ancients and unleashed the "sound" and final days on them, if it can corrupt people perhaps Danny is either unwillingly/unknowingly serving it, or even working for it after it twisted him.

[Kesey]

snip.

I don't think either Ancients or the current people are superior in fertility. Did you read my post where I said Amarout society was presented purposefully to your player character so they see the Ancient world in the wonderful rose shaded eyes of a child to provoke nostalgia?

And to address the beast tribes summoning primals, this has also been resolved as the cycle was perpetuated by tempered individuals and those individuals that could be saved are in the process of being saved. The tempering lasted through the original summonings, causing the cycle to continue and escalate. Now that can be stopped and we see all the beast tribes also don't want this to continue.

Regarding Elidibus and sacrificing people, I suggest you go back and review the story. Elidibus, as the heart of Zodiark, gets to form the frame work of the primal but doesn't empower it in it's entirety. Ancients had to be sacrificed numerous times and then they were going to kill all the life that had formed on the planets (which I equated to the beast tribes of our current existence). So yes there is a significant difference here. If the current humans of the star do not want to eradicate the the beast tribes to ensure their survival, then they are already morally and spirituality superior then the Ancients ever were. Which in turns justifies their survival over the Ancient's world.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I don't think either Ancients or the current people are superior in fertility. Did you read my post where I said Amarout society was presented purposefully to your player character so they see the Ancient world in the wonderful rose shaded eyes of a child to provoke nostalgia?

And to address the beast tribes summoning primals, this has also been resolved as the cycle was perpetuated by tempered individuals and those individuals that could be saved are in the process of being saved. The tempering lasted through the original summonings, causing the cycle to continue and escalate. Now that can be stopped and we see all the beast tribes also don't want this to continue.

Regarding Elidibus and sacrificing people, I suggest you go back and review the story. Elidibus, as the heart of Zodiark, gets to form the frame work of the primal but doesn't empower it in it's entirety. Ancients had to be sacrificed numerous times and then they were going to kill all the life that had formed on the planets (which I equated to the beast tribes of our current existence). So yes there is a significant difference here. If the current humans of the star do not want to eradicate the the beast tribes to ensure their survival, then they are already morally and spirituality superior then the Ancients ever were. Which in turns justifies their survival over the Ancient's world.

Sounds like a whole lot of headcanon with little to no basis. We are given the short stories as well to further give proof of the superiority of the Ancients and their way of life. I suggest you go and read those stories so you can properly give actual info instead of headcanon/fanfiction. Ancients had to be sacrificed yes, the save the planet from dying in which case no one would be alive today. You equated it to beast tribes but they’ve never explained what kind of life it was outside of Venat’s small monologue. So again, no basis and just random headcanon and speculation. Limsa already did eradicate beast tribes for their survival so that’s already off the table. So it doesn’t really justify anything. Again, no one seems to be responding to when i say the fact that, the sundering causes more death than the rejoinings ever would. Everyone talks about the genocide of the rejoinings but never seems to want to address the genocide hydaelyn caused by sundering the world and multiplying death 14 times.

[Kesey]

Sounds like a whole lot of headcanon with little to no basis. We are given the short stories as well to further give proof of the superiority of the Ancients and their way of life. I suggest you go and read those stories so you can properly give actual info instead of headcanon/fanfiction. Ancients had to be sacrificed yes, the save the planet from dying in which case no one would be alive today. You equated it to beast tribes but they’ve never explained what kind of life it was outside of Venat’s small monologue. So again, no basis and just random headcanon and speculation. Limsa already did eradicate beast tribes for their survival so that’s already off the table. So it doesn’t really justify anything. Again, no one seems to be responding to when i say the fact that, the sundering causes more death than the rejoinings ever would. Everyone talks about the genocide of the rejoinings but never seems to want to address the genocide hydaelyn caused by sundering the world and multiplying death 14 times.

Is it headcannon when I use the evidence from the game to form an opinion or make a judgment? Or does my conclusion just not agree with yours?

[KizuyaKatogami]

Is it headcannon when I use the evidence from the game to form an opinion or make a judgment? Or does my conclusion just not agree with yours?

Except you’re not really using any evidence. You’re going based off of assumptions ignoring the proper evidence in the form of short stories which counter a majority of your assumptions, whereas for the other things you brought up, we don’t have enough information on it to know one side or the other. You also said “kill all life on the planets” there was only one planet they were on, and they certainly weren’t going to kill all life lol.

[Caurcas]

If they are so superior why are they extinct? Furthermore, if our 7/14ths a "person" is solving the problem, that kind of makes them less than us.

[Tensaihime]

I could picture Azem coming back in a different outfit and with a different weapon every time, with Hades constantly bemoaning, "What are you wearing now?" with Hythlodaeus asking constant questions about the culture, outfit and whatnot. With Hades telling Hythlodaeus not to encourage Azem in this foolishness.

I was thinking of saving some money and getting a commission of Count Charlemend wearing scrubs and doing that one dance, but now I might want this more...

[KizuyaKatogami]

If they are so superior why are they extinct? Furthermore, if our 7/14ths a "person" is solving the problem, that kind of makes them less than us.

Well if we’re trying to be actually lore accurate,which i know is sometimes hard, it’s 9/14th :P. but anyways. They’re extinct because of something completely out of their control. They were attacked by some unknown force that was able to completely counter their powers, hijacking their fears. Lets not forget this led not only to their own deaths, but the star's as well. They researched how to combat it and did, and we cant really compare the current final days considering it has nowhere near the same amount of fuel aka current beings largely lack creation magicks. In regards to the ancients becoming extinct, tjhey were sundered, forgetting their memories of who they once were. I don’t really know how that’s hard to understand? As for us solving the problem, we never do it alone. We’re boosted by a primal if you don’t remember and against each of the unsundered we had multiple plot devices at our disposal whether it be hydaelyn’s blessing or emet’s convocation crystal etc. One of the two primals has already been summoned, exists, and its power is drawn upon by the WoL, so its not really the same situation as the past at all.

[Caurcas]

Well if we’re trying to be actually lore accurate,which i know is sometimes hard, it’s 9/14th :P. but anyways. They’re extinct because of something completely out of their control. They were attacked by some unknown force that was able to completely counter their powers, hijacking their fears. Lets not forget this led not only to their own deaths, but the star's as well. They researched how to combat it and did, and we cant really compare the current final days considering it has nowhere near the same amount of fuel aka current beings largely lack creation magicks. In regards to the ancients becoming extinct, tjhey were sundered, forgetting their memories of who they once were. I don’t really know how that’s hard to understand? As for us solving the problem, we never do it alone. We’re boosted by a primal if you don’t remember and against each of the unsundered we had multiple plot devices at our disposal whether it be hydaelyn’s blessing or emet’s convocation crystal etc. One of the two primals has already been summoned, exists, and its power is drawn upon by the WoL, so its not really the same situation as the past at all.

Its quite simple, that race is long dead and gone. No amount of Ancient and Emet-simpery will bring those back a good idea plot wise. The WoL and Co are fixing the problem presented to them in the present, and will most likely succeed given how the story has played out thus far. I would also go so far as to say that the "lesser" being have proven way more adapt at dealing with strife and adversity. They know how to struggle, the Ancients didn't. Furthermore, Azem told the convocation to kick rocks with the Zodiark plan and our WoL is no different.