Thread: Revelations from Patch 5.5 (Part 2)

There would not be much of a story if every single tragedy that occurred in the story happened to be reversed through the use of time travel. Though Kizuya brings up a fair point - the Sundered only accomplished time travel through devices rendered unto them by higher beings either directly or indirectly. Indeed, even Nidhogg could only be defeated with the aid of Hraesvelgr. Elidibus was only bested due to Emet-Selch's intervention, too.

Originally Posted by Caurcas

Omega is not an unsundered, but rather a being like Midgardsomr. A being outside that paradigm. Furthermore, it took the usage of the Crystal Tower. A structure build by "lesser" beings.

Omega and Midgardsormr are the equivalent of the Unsundered as they were not Sundered by Hydaelyn and made weaker than their original forms. The sheer amount of power that Nidhogg and the other dragons wield in comparison to the Sundered is also exactly what caused the Dragonsong War to erupt - which, as I'm sure you'll agree, served as a pretty major plot point back in Heavensward. Even Hydaelyn laments the battle between man and dragon in the lyrics for Dragonsong.

The Crystal Tower, meanwhile, was built at the behest of the Allagans - who, in turn, were influenced and given knowledge by Emet-Selch.

Originally Posted by Caurcas

Simpery might be too harsh, but as someone who enjoyed him (Emet) a great deal it is annoying and reduces my enjoyment of his arc when people try to convince me that he was right when the game clearly presents him as in the wrong. His motivations are understandable, and even sympathetic, but he is still a villain and is committing evil acts.

You're free to think of him as a villain if you wish. At the end of the day, though, it's a matter of perspective - Lauront posted interviews on a previous page where Yoshi-P states as much as himself. It's a video game, something people play to enjoy and be entertained by. There's players from all over the world, from all sorts of different countries, cultures and backgrounds. That means differences in personal tastes, too.

I've skimmed past quite a lot of debate here so forgive me if this has been addressed, but doesn't Emet-Selch himself concede that he has gone astray of his own path in his final scene? Is that not the crux of the scene with Elidibus shortly after, where he states that there will be no seeing eye to eye with the Scions, ever, period?

In that scene, Alphinaud points out that Emet-Selch's last wish might have been to Elidibus, too - that the Warrior of Light can be entrusted with the legacy of the Ancients, as well. That's what "Remember us." means: (Remember that we were more than this. Remember us at our best. Remember that we loved this world. Please don't remember us only for what we became.) Y'shtola asks Elidibus if Emet-Selch's own words and wishes mean nothing to him, and he states that if he were there to see Emet-Selch say this, he would have corrected him, as he would have gone astray of the one acceptable truth. In German, he's especially angry, calling him "unworthy of the name Original" if he would ever say that.

And yet once Elidibus is defeated and himself freed, he takes the same point of view. As beautifully devastating as the English line is, French highlights his change of heart even better: "It's already over. All has already been lost. My friends, how could I have abandoned you, to stay here in this world as you went on alone...?" That's the tragedy of his character. His one purpose was to bring people together and advocate for the best outcome, and his sight of "best" was clouded and led him astray.

I feel like almost every "good vs. evil" debate skips over this almost entirely, lol. Everyone made hard decisions and mistakes.

Going into more speculative territory, for all the sympathy and understanding we got out of the Ascians' side of the story, it didn't really help their case that we should lose. At all. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we see the same of Venat: tough decisions, good intentions, no good case that we should lose. Salvation for our beautifully broken world at all costs. The only difference is that Hydaelyn was summoned to support this, so even if she has to go (assuming that can even happen with her plugged into the Lifestream, remember what happened when Zodiark was punched while plugged in), I wouldn't be surprised if it was a bittersweet goodbye.

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I've skimmed past quite a lot of debate here so forgive me if this has been addressed, but doesn't Emet-Selch himself concede that he has gone astray of his own path in his final scene? Is that not the crux of the scene with Elidibus shortly after, where he states that there will be no seeing eye to eye with the Scions, ever, period?

In that scene, Alphinaud points out that Emet-Selch's last wish might have been to Elidibus, too - that the Warrior of Light can be entrusted with the legacy of the Ancients, as well. That's what "Remember us." means: Remember what we were more than this. Remember us at our best. Remember that we loved this world. Please don't remember us only for what we became. Y'shtola asks Elidibus if Emet-Selch's own words and wishes mean nothing to him, and he states that if he were there to see Emet-Selch say this, he would have corrected him, as he would have gone astray of the one acceptable truth. In German, he's especially angry, calling him "unworthy of the name Original" if he would ever say that.

And yet once Elidibus is defeated and himself freed, he takes the same point of view. As beautifully devastating as the English line is, French highlights his change of heart even better: "It's already over. All has already been lost. My friends, how could I have abandoned you, to stay here in this world as you went on alone...?" That's the tragedy of his character. His one purpose was to bring people together and advocate for the best outcome, and his sight of "best" was clouded and led him astray.

I feel like almost every "good vs. evil" debate skips over this almost entirely, lol. Everyone made hard decisions and mistakes.

Going into more speculative territory, for all the sympathy and understanding we got out of the Ascians' side of the story, it didn't really help their case that we should lose. At all. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we see the same of Venat: touch decisions, good intentions, no good case that we should lose. Salvation for our beautifully broken world at all costs. The only difference is that Hydaelyn was summoned to support this, so even if she has to go (assuming that can even happen with her plugged into the Lifestream, remember what happened when Zodiark was punched while plugged in), I wouldn't be surprised if it was a bittersweet goodbye.

You hit it right on the head.

Brother stay this descent to madness
Come and save us. Catch us before we fall

Like broken angels, wingless, cast from heavens' gates
(Our slumb'ring demons awake)

We only fly when falling, falling far from grace
(Hell take us, heaven can wait)

For all his talk of being an Emissary, he didn't leave a lot of room for talking. Once he saw the deaths of his brothers in arms he made the fatal flaw of rushing the situation. Could have waited. Could have genuinely asked us to find a way to coexist. Splitting timelines is an actual option here. We don't have to share one for crying out loud.

"To strive for the best of all futures... Be that not also thine purpose?" - Urianger.

Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Try summing up the history of your house in a few pages, much less your town, or your country or your planet, we're just missing so much, Azem was able to break the rules, while he did it in a no offensive, often joking/positive way, he could do it so did others do it in a more direct way? Did they have a justice system? They retroactively proved with Lahabrea, that the Ancients could go mad, while it was partly due to his body hopping, the fact it could happen for one reason means it could happen for others. What did the rest of the world look like? We know it was a big deal to get live in Amaurot, but did the rest of the world enjoy the same level of comfort? Given Azem needed to fix issues whever they went, it seems unlikely, but then why? With something like creation magic why would you even need someone like Azem? We just know so little about the time back then.

Fully agree with you there. We got to view Amaurot how Emet saw it or how he wanted to remember them. It will probably not be 100% accurate. The devs still decided to show us that not all was well either. They showed new people being unsure if its good to be there. They showed with a side quest that not only a child already has to hide their individuality but that they do fear that it would lead to bad places. Also this very same quest hinted that Ancient ones existed that did not possess the huge amount of aether to just create something, they gave us a crystal to do so.

On top of that we know from the short stories that seemingly souls existed that were so angry that they bascially had to be forced back to the livestream by Hades. Why would such a thing exist if all was great? And as you said, why would the role of Azem be needed?

I just doubt that no conflict ever happened, maybe not in Amaurot itself? Or maybe Azem just always stopped it themselves thus the view that all is perfect was kept? After all they were able to feel all the emotions we do. Which includes the negative ones too.

(I also find it fascinating that in the german translations of the story about the volcano, the people living on that island were called mortals. Just a wrongly written word or did it maybe hint that Ancients were not all on the same level?)

Also we do know that new life started with Zodiark. Where those suddenly lesser beings without that power? Could that be the origion of our races or did they exist before?

Originally Posted by Erendis

Well, while traveling back we could be in Mide kind of situation. Where today exists because we went to the past.

Speaking of Ironworks. I wonder if because of them the Source ended up running from the wolf and stumbling on the bear? There was no mention of Ascians or Final days happening in the "bad future" and here we are facing possible complete destruction of the star.

Well in the bad future we bascially died on the battlefield thanks to black rose, which means that Emet and Elidibus are still alive. In that case Fandaniel would still be under control. At the same time the world was still in a really bad form 200 years after that event since the Black rose did not just kill people but was also very bad for the land itself. So if nothing was done, a huge amount of people would have died, future generations would live a terrible life, the ascians would still be there thus the rejoining and rise of Zodiark could still happen (or maybe the source is so badly messed up that its quite lost and even though they are there, the Ascians still cant fullfill their dreams).

We do not know how bad the destruction will be. Of course people will sadly die and some countries might get hit very bad but since its an MMO and 6.x was already confirmed we know that we will win over this.