Parsers add replayability for casual players

[Lanadra]

Then you get the opposite problem where it becomes impossible to kick players who queue with their friends. A prime example came from TalesofDF just today where a DPS refused to attack because the tank did big pulls (baffling, I know). They rightfully kicked him and the other DPS demanded they kick him too because "you just kicked my friend." In your proposed change, the tank and healer have no recourse but for one of them to take a 30 minute penalty for literally no reason or kowtow to these two players.

While the current system has its problems. It's better than the alternative.

So you'd rather have that abuse in the hands of the kickers as opposed to the kickees? Noted. Because that's how it is now. Bring a friend and you can kick whoever you want, justified or not. At least in what we're talking about here, 4 man content. I consider that just the same kind of abuse.

If you have a party of 4, you should need an absolute majority, 3/4, to get a successful kick. Kicking shouldn't be an easy thing, it should be a last resort that takes the consensus of all but the actual target to succeed. I hate to keep kicking him (no pun intended) but Awha is the perfect example of someone who gleefully uses vote kick to a ridiculously liberal level because 'I can get away with it'. Resulting in kicks for absurd reasons like what race or gender the player is using, merely being a first timer or even just for a laugh.

[Awha]

So you'd rather have that abuse in the hands of the kickers as opposed to the kickees? Noted. Because that's how it is now. Bring a friend and you can kick whoever you want, justified or not. At least in what we're talking about here, 4 man content. I consider that just the same kind of abuse.

If you have a party of 4, you should need an absolute majority, 3/4, to get a successful kick. Kicking shouldn't be an easy thing, it should be a last resort that takes the consensus of all but the actual target to succeed. I hate to keep kicking him (no pun intended) but Awha is the perfect example of someone who gleefully uses vote kick to a ridiculously liberal level because 'I can get away with it'. Resulting in kicks for absurd reasons like what race or gender the player is using, merely being a first timer or even just for a laugh.

I would not say gleefully, that would require me to feel some sense or joy or happiness I am rarely ever happy when I end up running DF. That aside since you keep bringing me up, answer me this objectively why does the reason matter? Under the current system within FFXIV if the vote passes why should anything else matter? The validity of the reason is subjective so why focus so much on that point?

This reminds me of the housing system, people are willing to trade one imperfect system for another that also comes with their own issues. Which will have no impact on me or people like me since we will just find another work around.

[Lanadra]

I would not say gleefully, that would require me to feel some sense or joy or happiness I am rarely ever happy when I end up running DF. That aside since you keep bringing me up, answer me this objectively why does the reason matter? Under the current system within FFXIV if the vote passes why should anything else matter? The validity of the reason is subjective so why focus so much on that point?

This reminds me of the housing system, people are willing to trade one imperfect system for another that also comes with their own issues. Which will have no impact on me or people like me since we will just find another work around.

You stack votes. To me that means nothing about it is legitimate in the first place. You by your own admission stack votes to ensure your kicks pass. It doesn't mean you're right, it means you had enough thought to make sure that you bring someone whom you can count on to agree with you over whatever stranger you're trying to get rid off. Because you know how this system works and want to be able to get rid of anyone, at any time, for any reason you can think off.

Anyhow, there is ultimately no real point trying to discuss the wrongness of it with you any further, you've already stated that you flat out do not see anything wrong with your kicking behavior where most others would.

[Awha]

You stack votes. To me that means nothing about it is legitimate in the first place. You by your own admission stack votes to ensure your kicks pass. It doesn't mean you're right, it means you had enough thought to make sure that you bring someone whom you can count on to agree with you over whatever stranger you're trying to get rid off. Because you know how this system works and want to be able to get rid of anyone, at any time, for any reason you can think off.

Anyhow, there is ultimately no real point trying to discuss the wrongness of it with you any further, you've already stated that you flat out do not see anything wrong with your kicking behavior where most others would.

The thing is the person I bring is still part of the group. They have their own free will and freedom of choice, or are you saying by grouping with someone you throw away your own sense of free will and or choice?

People I bring are free to choose if they agree what difference does it make if they were part of my group or I queued randomly. I have still gotten many votes to pass without fiends. Or would you bsve problems with critical roles starting a vote since I have found people are more likely to vote in agreement if say a tank or healer start the vote.

Is that also level of manipulation something we need to fix? The reality is this under the current system you may disagree but the vote of the person in my group is legitimate.

That is the thing it appears you are saying it is wrong based off your own standard, yet have not given me a reason as to why I should operate on your standard. My actions are wrong in your view, but what I am asking is if the system allows it are my actions wrong under the current system.

[ForteNightshade]

I respectfully disagree. I've had too many instances where I was the ignored third vote of no when two others ganged up on someone else. And were sometimes nasty and negative in chat after they gave them the boot. And I had no choice in those cases but to take a 30 minute penalty for no reason because that's the only way the game allows me to be an active participant in the choice.

Once someone is kicked or leaves, you can also leave yourself without incurring a penalty provided no one else joins. So you have an alternative in this scenario.

There's this show on really late on Game Show Network called Divided. There are four people who answer questions and then they vote one off. Everyone gets a vote. And if it's split, you have to convince others around to your side. That's what they need to do. If they really want someone gone, then convince me.

In the case you're talking about, the dps stopped attacking and seems like (unless like in that case where the kickee was also with a friend) it would be a pretty solid consensus to boot them. Things just aren't balanced the way they are right now when four people participate but the input of only two matters.

This is a poor example. In this specific example, the contestants lose money the longer it takes to come to a consensus. So they have incentive to agree. Most game shows operate this way. There is so such incentive in FFXIV since the other thing lost is time.

... you didn't read the scenario I described as I outlined exactly that: both DPS were friends, thus you wouldn't be able to convince them. With your proposed change, the tank and healer have literally no recourse but to eat a penalty themselves or deal with someone who's refusing to attack unless the dungeon is done his specific way. I can assure you, there would be numerous cases of people AFKing and purposely DCing when an attempted kick didn't go through because someone's friend said "nope."

So you'd rather have that abuse in the hands of the kickers as opposed to the kickees? Noted. Because that's how it is now. Bring a friend and you can kick whoever you want, justified or not. At least in what we're talking about here, 4 man content. I consider that just the same kind of abuse.

In a word, yes. Because it's the lesser of two evils. Both versions can be abused except only one causes further problems by forcing people to take 30 minute penalties.