Parsers add replayability for casual players

[Lanadra]

There seem to be some people that are under this delusion that if casual players could see their dps it would make them better. Under this theory I should be able to login into WoW or any MMO that allows dps meters then I should be playing dungeons/raids with all orange parsing gamer gods.

What MMO have you people played where having a dps meter made casual players magically better?

I mean they're not really wrong on a basic level. The honest person who isn't toxic or malicious but did think they were doing well may see that they are in fact at rock bottom and doing horrible and they may very well go ''holy shit.. I didn't know I was doing so badly.. I gotta work on that'', those people exist, people who otherwise would never really care enough to take the actual step of getting ACT.

It just seems like people here can't make up their minds on whether DF runs are filled with bad people who would improve if they just had a parser to show them just how bad they are.. or malicious malcontents who don't care and won't do anything with it. I know Caurcas's massive thread is many of the same people in this thread all complaining about how DF is flooded with maliciously bad people who play badly on purpose.. a parser won't do anything about those kind of 'baddies'. A parser will only help those who welcome that help, who are perhaps not aware that they're not playing a job correctly and could use the raw data that a parser would show them as a wake up call.

[Awha]

There seem to be some people that are under this delusion that if casual players could see their dps it would make them better. Under this theory I should be able to login into WoW or any MMO that allows dps meters and be playing dungeons/raids with all orange parsing gamer gods.

What MMO have you people played where having a dps meter made casual players magically better?

Oh I agree having meters will not make people magically better but I do belive the off chance that in some cases if someone saw their numbers relative to others it may raise questions that may potentially spark improvement that may otherwise not have happened or happened later down the road.

It is a bases of potential for postive and and negative.

[StriderShinryu]

I mean they're not really wrong on a basic level. The honest person who isn't toxic or malicious but did think they were doing well may see that they are in fact at rock bottom and doing horrible and they may very well go ''holy shit.. I didn't know I was doing so badly.. I gotta work on that'', those people exist, people who otherwise would never really care enough to take the actual step of getting ACT.

It just seems like people here can't make up their minds on whether DF runs are filled with bad people who would improve if they just had a parser to show them just how bad they are.. or malicious malcontents who don't care and won't do anything with it. I know Caurcas's massive thread is many of the same people in this thread all complaining about how DF is flooded with maliciously bad people who play badly on purpose.. a parser won't do anything about those kind of 'baddies'. A parser will only help those who welcome that help, who are perhaps not aware that they're not playing a job correctly and could use the raw data that a parser would show them as a wake up call.

The problem with parsers as a teaching tool is that they lack context.

If I were to walk up to and say that your Official FF14 Forum Performance is a 6 how would you react to that? You could say "Yay, I'm 6th place!" or "Damn, I should be 5th!" or "Oh no, how do I improve my 6 to a better score?" or "Wait.. what does that even mean?" or whole host of other reactions. You could also say "Ummm.. okay, but I'm getting along in the forums just fine so what you tell me doesn't matter."

Now think of that in reference to FF14. If I do a Trial and parse 17000 DPS, what does that mean? Even if you have the game tell me it's a B+ ranking or give it some magical colour coding, it does nothing to tell me how I can improve or what I'm doing wrong (or right) without going to some outside source for further information.. and if I'm already doing "bad" enough to need that then chances are I'm not going to go to a third party service for help. And, more importantly, if I'm performing in the game just fine by finishing all of my MSQ instances, getting through trials and dungeons, having Alphinaud pat me on the back, etc. then it doesn't really matter what my parse is because the game as a whole is telling me it's okay.

An in game parser could work IF it was included as a suite of tutorial systems as well as a general difficulty increase in the game as whole, but just on it's own it won't really solve any problems and will likely just do more harm than good.

[Puremallace]

Oh I agree having meters will not make people magically better but I do belive the off chance that in some cases if someone saw their numbers relative to others it may raise questions that may potentially spark improvement that may otherwise not have happened or happened later down the road.

It is a bases of potential for postive and and negative.

Oh no you put far too much faith into humanity. Here is how this really goes....

Scenario 1:
Casual: He has bigger numbers then me...
Forums: Square Enix please change this class so I can do better dps on a controller as someone on a PC

Scenario 2
Casual: He has bigger numbers then me...
Forums: Please buff my class!
Forum person: Wouldn't that make the other guy even better?
Casual: Who cares I just want bigger numbers!

Scenario 3
Casual: Man I hope noone notices my dps is low
Casual A: Dude your dps sucks
Square Enix: Perma ban to Casual A

It is extremely rare that someone has this enlightened moment where they go get better. Instead they see X class wrecking them in DPS then flood the forums with "buff my class or I am unsubbing!!" post.

[SaberMaxwell]

Oh no you put far too much faith into humanity. Here is how this really goes....

Scenario 1:
Casual: He has bigger numbers then me...
Forums: Square Enix please change this class so I can do better dps on a controller as someone on a PC

This scenario already exists today with the unofficial parsing toolkit we have, an official release wouldn't even exacerbate the situation because of how niche upon niche both the forum community and raiding communities are. If the concern here is controller versus pc... well, controllers do not hold players back in this game whatsoever, a lot of the top players use controller, and a lot use kbm, what matters is your practice and comfort with your input device.

Scenario 2
Casual: He has bigger numbers then me...
Forums: Please buff my class!
Forum person: Wouldn't that make the other guy even better?
Casual: Who cares I just want bigger numbers!

This is just reworded scenario 1 but being more honest about the concern, but again, this scenario already exists with the unofficial parsing kit we have today.

Scenario 3
Casual: Man I hope noone notices my dps is low
Casual A: Dude your dps sucks
Square Enix: Perma ban to Casual A

Is there something wrong with this scenario? Harassing people over numbers *should* be bannable (meeting you halfway and accepting for the sake of argument that this is intended to be parse harassment). If the problem is "it happens" then it's just as likely to happen now, because there's no reason to believe SE wouldn't be hyper strict about the enforcement of anti-harassment rules regarding parsers.

It is extremely rare that someone has this enlightened moment where they go get better. Instead they see X class wrecking them in DPS then flood the forums with "buff my class or I am unsubbing!!" post.

Whether there's an official parser or not. Especially with a few classes, very frequently there are "Buff my class" "fix my class" "change my class" type posts all over the forums.

[xxmiamorecadenza]

At the end of the day, casuals are best left blissfully ignorant of just how mediocre they are. Silent kicks are the way to go if they’re playing abysmally to the point of disruption. Don’t explain why - as that’d likely result in you being viewed as the villain or villainous of their personal story no matter how civil you are - and try to tailor your experience so that you can spend it with folk who are sharp enough and self-aware enough to play on a competent level. It’s what I do, personally. I know I’ll have to inevitably submerge myself into roulettes when I level from 80 to 90 on every single class; but I’ll just practice what I preach and quietly kick, queue with my fellow raiders or tolerate being annoyed for roughly half hour if my luck is poor.

[Rinhi]

How can I put this nicely?

This sort of attitude tells me one VERY clear thing -- this is the attitude and type of behaviour that indicates someone isn't the sort of player I wouldn't enjoy playing with.
Not because I want to be carried, be lazy, or anything like that... no, this just tells me that I'd be dealing with a generally unpleasant sort of person to be around.

From this perspective, a parser is more often than not just a tool to enable these attitudes and behaviours. As I said before, the potential for harm greatly outweighs the potential benefits.
I'd rather deal with (and if necessary, help out) players who are struggling or inefficient than deal with a highly effective and efficient *ahem* "unpleasant individual".

I mean, good for you? I always give tips to new players when I end up in a low level dungeons and I see them struggling or explain the mechanics if someone is asking for it, but if you think I'm a tryhard elitist harda** on sprouts because I argue for people to play their class decently well? go off, I guess?
If you think that me wanting someone who has spent several tens (hundreds?) of hours playing to play their class in higher level dungeons/trials/raids well: what exactly is wrong with that? they've invested a lot of time into the game already and should've have a rudimentary grasp on the underlying mechanics at least, so wanting them to actually put their knowledge to proper use is wrong?

lanada said it well: it could serve as a wake up call to players who think they're doing well - to make them actually do well; it could serve as a reality check for toxic players who think they're god's greatest gift to earth when they were in fact doing less damage than both healers who's giving everyone crap
but I digress: I'm probably one of the nicest players you'd meet in game , I just want people to try to be as good as they can!

Easier for what? Proof of what?

accountability for toxic players who run their mouth about how player X or Y were doing so badly and how they themselves were the sole reason everything was fine, when in fact they did the least damage out of everyone - or a healer who complains and whines about having to solo heal when they're using they're overhealing everyone, never dps and use cure 2 and co on cooldown instead of lilies while their co-healer does use lilies or ogcd's, barely overheals and does a good amount of dps
with one, the unwarranted and toxic self-importance of those two examples about their 'great' performance would vanish immediately because there'd be undeniable proof that they're just plain wrong

note how I didn't mention that other players should call them out on it; I do think players like this would sing a different song if they'd see that they aren't playing as great as they think they do - and I'm all for warning and subsequently banning people should they use the (hypothetical official) parser to shame others

If you truly believe this, then you didn't understand the other side at all.

sorry, but have you read earlier posts in the thread? multiple posters were defending players who actively don't use their abilities for various reasons and that people should just accept it - and allow them to grief others because 'this is what you get when you use the DF'

Then again, it's no wonder when you have statements like this:

please don't mistake me for sturm, we may share some viewpoints at times and our cats look similar, but we're wholly different moonies (though when we had the same haircut I was confused at times as well!)

[Awha]

Oh no you put far too much faith into humanity. Here is how this really goes....

Scenario 1:
Casual: He has bigger numbers then me...
Forums: Square Enix please change this class so I can do better dps on a controller as someone on a PC

Scenario 2
Casual: He has bigger numbers then me...
Forums: Please buff my class!
Forum person: Wouldn't that make the other guy even better?
Casual: Who cares I just want bigger numbers!

Scenario 3
Casual: Man I hope noone notices my dps is low
Casual A: Dude your dps sucks
Square Enix: Perma ban to Casual A

It is extremely rare that someone has this enlightened moment where they go get better. Instead they see X class wrecking them in DPS then flood the forums with "buff my class or I am unsubbing!!" post.

Oh no I have very little faith in humanity but I still belive in the off chance that someone will use the information to better themselves in game. That is how I got into raiding someone pointed out with harsh words and numbers but it got me thinking and lead me to improve.

Generally I not think the cases of harassment outweigh the benefits. I am willing to bank on those rare cases.

[SturmChurro]

please don't mistake me for sturm, we may share some viewpoints at times and our cats look similar, but we're wholly different moonies (though when we had the same haircut I was confused at times as well!)

I skim through so many posts (or outright don't read them) I didn't even catch that!

My cat is completely grey anyway, I'M DISTINCT!

[ZedxKayn]

How can I put this nicely?

This sort of attitude tells me one VERY clear thing -- this is the attitude and type of behaviour that indicates someone isn't the sort of player I wouldn't enjoy playing with.
Not because I want to be carried, be lazy, or anything like that... no, this just tells me that I'd be dealing with a generally unpleasant sort of person to be around.

From this perspective, a parser is more often than not just a tool to enable these attitudes and behaviours. As I said before, the potential for harm greatly outweighs the potential benefits.
I'd rather deal with (and if necessary, help out) players who are struggling or inefficient than deal with a highly effective and efficient *ahem* "unpleasant individual".

Judging from the current stance of the developers, I think they share the same perspective.
And I wouldn't be surprised if many other players share a similar viewpoint.

What's unpleasant about holding griefers accountable?