Parsers add replayability for casual players

[Deceptus]

A full group using only single target abilities would still clear an expert dungeon easily. Only way to fail one of those dungeons is for most of the group to not be playing at all.

If I'm tanking a dungeon and I see a DPS using single target abilities while there's 10 mobs or so I'm going to say something.

1) They're making the run take a heck of a lot longer than it should. They're essentially dead weight. It is their $15 a month but they're holding up the other collective $45 from the other people.

2) The tank and Healer are both having to expend a LOT more resources staying alive. They might eventually run out of CDs. Seen it happen.

[Goji1639]

If I'm tanking a dungeon and I see a DPS using single target abilities while there's 10 mobs or so I'm going to say something.

1) They're making the run take a heck of a lot longer than it should. They're essentially dead weight. It is their $15 a month but they're holding up the other collective $45 from the other people.

2) The tank and Healer are both having to expend a LOT more resources staying alive. They might eventually run out of CDs. Seen it happen.

I was just saying that guys rationale for kicking a single target DPS (if the whole group was as bad as you could we clear the dungeon) was flawed. The whole group could be just as bad as a single target SAM and you'd clear any expert dungeon just fine.

My take on this is I only really care if the group is struggling. If the run is going fine then "saying something" isn't going to make things go any faster, it'll just potentially result in an argument that slows things down even more. If someone in the group really needs to vent their frustration on whoever isn't working hard enough for them, I'd prefer they send a tell AFTER the run is finished.

I've wall to walled tons of roulettes and have actually single pulled through the same dungeons with trusts. The difference is like 10-15 minutes, and that's with the entire trust single targeting baby pulls. One person in the group slacking doesn't make enough of a difference to really matter.

[TaleraRistain]

This is why people come to the conclusion that, people just do not want to see how they are performing. The do not want to see that they are potentially being a hinderance to the group and so would rather remain ignorant than face the fact they are the ones holding the group back. They can then claim potential for harassment and the cycle continues. Unless I am missing something here with my admittedly biased view, there has always been compromise on the part of the pro-parsers however, no budging on the anti-parsers, which makes coming to a compromise impossible.

You are missing something. The content being discussed in the OP is normal content. This basically encompasses dungeons, normal trials, normal raids, and alliance raids. Very rarely do you see hard enrage timers or paper thin dps checks like the more endgame content. That's because the normal content is designed to be accessible to a wide variety of playstyles, experience levels, and gear levels, minus instances of specific ilevel requirements. Duty Finder (at least outside of how JP uses it) is a giant melting pot of all those different types of players. Trying to set standards outside of what the game design demands results in excluding players who could otherwise participate. Many of us who PUG go into PUGing with our eyes wide open that we may get a less than perfect party and we're willing to roll up our sleeves and help. Yeah, it's probably uncompromising, but I won't compromise if it means excluding players who are trying as hard as they can. If others don't want to extend that helping hand because they want a perfect group and can't stand being with those "lesser" than they are, then they don't need to run roulettes with randoms. But instead they want to come in and tell us we have to be judgmental and exclusionary like them. And no, I will not do that.

[TaleraRistain]

Good point. So, why not add an official parser that is only available during high-end raids? (Savage/Ultimate difficulty)

No complaints here.

My arguments have been against the OP, which was parsing in normal content. Savage/Ultimate have the sort of mechanics that can affect clearing if the numbers aren't analyzed and the necessary measures implemented for success. SE's answer was SSS, and SSS is only implemented for that higher end content.

I imagine that SE doesn't want to go further than that because opening the parsing door at all will then lead to demands for it in normal content. But they could treat it like they treated the idea of Ultimate ever being able to be unsynched and just state that what players get is what they're getting and it's not going any further. But I find it unlikely they even want to breathe a whiff down that path. It is far less of a headache for them and their personnel who would need to address complaints to quietly acknowledge they have implemented content where parsers are needed and look the other way so they can come down hard when they become an issue in content where they are not needed.

[Caurcas]

Alot of pages of arguments, but all amount to protecting players from knowing they need to improve. Pretty toxic if you ask me.

[TaleraRistain]

Hm? Why would we need that?

The kicking system requires that a majority of non-targeted voters need to approve in order to kick someone. That's the only filter we need. We don't need GMs going around getting involved in party kicks, that's way too much nanny state stuff. Let's let people handle their parties on their own.

One of the big problems of the current vote kick system is that that non-targeted idea. They've giving the kickee no say and allowing just two people who gang up to overrule the other two people who were also in the party.

Vote kick needs to be adjusted as a majority of the total size of the party. So 3/4 for 4-person and 5/8 for 8-man.

[Awha]

One of the big problems of the current vote kick system is that that non-targeted idea. They've giving the kickee no say and allowing just two people who gang up to overrule the other two people who were also in the party.

Vote kick needs to be adjusted as a majority of the total size of the party. So 3/4 for 4-person and 5/8 for 8-man.

For 8 man’s I can see that working but for 4 man content, doesn’t that potential create abuse but just from a different side. Though I could see that working if the vote fails then people are free to leave the group without penalty just for a brief moment after the failed vote. Though I get for some this may create a culture of leaving which some many not want. The 4 person group makes it weird when it comes to voting.

Like I was toying with the idea say the kicker and kickee do not get any vote per-se and for a vote to pass it requires the remaining two players to vote in unanimous consent, but yeah that still creates room for abuse so we are in a weird spot.

[Puremallace]

Alot of pages of arguments, but all amount to protecting players from knowing they need to improve. Pretty toxic if you ask me.

Nope most of it is proving just how toxic it would get an quick if this was put into the MMO.

[Penthea]

Good point. So, why not add an official parser that is only available during high-end raids? (Savage/Ultimate difficulty)

I'd be fine with this given that content is a place where having the information a parser displays can make a tremendous difference between success and failure.

You don't need tools like that in DF because frankly if someone is so bad that you cannot do the content it is obvious even without a parser. You don't need a parser to see a healer isn't healing or dpsing, or to see that the tank doesn't know how to hold aggro. Dps checks are so infrequent that it doesn't matter much if the dps are only okay. The few that exist usually only pose problems if too many are dead or are hitting the wrong target. You can tell by spell effects if someone is doing aoe or not. You don't ever need parsers to be able to get through DF content.

Savage is a different story. The demands are significantly higher than normal mode and because of how hectic that environment can be issues you can easily spot in DF become more difficult to see. Sometimes there is just too much going on for you to be able to pay attention to what someone else is doing. It can also be unclear why a wipe happened due to complex mechanics or spell effects. Parsers are excellent tools not only for finding out why the team isn't doing enough numbers, but to see who messed up a mechanic and see in plain text what issues this caused.

In DF I don't want casual players to feel pressured into playing far above the requirements of the content just so that they can avoid harsh words. I don't want a casual player who is doing their best to be accused of laziness even when the content isn't more difficult to do because of them. I don't want someone who is learning a new role or is rusty with a class to get nasty comments even if they're not actually causing an issue. Some people enjoy unnecessarily critisising others and I don't want them to have a tool that allows them to easily find something to complain about while they're doing content that doesn't demand much. I watched this happen so much in WoW and I hated it. I don't want to see this again.

I know this game isn't WoW but I sadly have no reason to believe that the FFXIV community wouldn't become similar if parsers were allowed to be openly used in all content. A lot of the hostility in threads like this that I see from some players regarding other people's performance is identical to what I have seen in WoW.

I'm anti-parser when it comes to casual content because they're not needed there and many would just use them to needlessly criticise others. I'm not anti-parser in content above that because that environment demands a far higher degree of player knowledge and it's significantly more difficult to figure out problems from just the game. Parsers belong in content where you need to closely examine what is going on in order to achieve success, and that content is not casual content.

[WoW]

I was just saying that guys rationale for kicking a single target DPS (if the whole group was as bad as you could we clear the dungeon) was flawed. The whole group could be just as bad as a single target SAM and you'd clear any expert dungeon just fine.

Single targeting a DPS means either you don't know what you're doing so being quiet will just make you a worse player (which most here would love that because they don't want others to improve so that they don't have to do so themselves), or you're intentionally doing it which is insulting to your other team members that are putting in the effort and you deserve the kick for that! There's no other case besides these two.

So I say speak up about it if you see it!! If they refused the advice, kick them!!

Nope most of it is proving just how toxic it would get an quick if this was put into the MMO.

You're just afraid that people would call you "Forever Grey"