Parsers add replayability for casual players

[Shurrikhan]

This isn't a parameter for success or failure, though, it's speculation. Most people would agree that 30 minutes is a reasonable expectation, but it's not anyone's responsibility to accommodate your expectations.

Those expectations are no less worth accommodating than general expectations of etiquette. Heck, the things that allow for a run to be smoothly and enjoyably finished in the usual 15-25 minutes are all literally matters of etiquette, just ones specific to that vein of activity.

90 minutes and ToS stipulations that everyone in the party has to be working towards the goal of meeting that 90 minutes

Moreover, there is no meaningful, let alone directly, relationship between the ToS and those timers, only between ToS and established community etiquette. Being expected not to AFK-leech has nothing the timer. Being expected not to sabotage the run has nothing to do with the timer. obvious sabotage is obvious sabotage no matter how long that timer is or how many minutes remain.

And when those timers were set, back in the days of pre-nerfs Amdapor Keep, people were actually hitting that maximum, not even all that infrequently. Some would disband after repeated wipes to Demon Wall, but others would end up finally getting through only to time out a few wipes into the final boss. The same occurred again in pre-nerf Pharos Sirius, for whom the first and last bosses were especially difficult at its onset. The timer's never been adjusted, but it did not begin as something tremendously lenient. The timer mattered.

but I understand that's a preference and not their "responsibility" to me.

But why are we affording to anything less than a legal obligation any and all leniency? We're not required to be nice to each other, only to avoid provably disparaging remarks, but being nice (or at least, not unkind, even if less than provably) should be expected, no? Why would the same not be true for our efforts in or preparedness for content, through which we not get more engaged in the game and that shared experience but also value each other's time?

[Goji1639]

Well, I never read that post. It seems I have to disagree with two people then. Trust dungeons take about 30 minute so people don't necessarily want to do them over a DF dungeon that should be faster. It's not meant to be a replacement. That's the parameters this game has set.

That's not a parameter the game has set, that's an assumption. Even on that assumption, Trusts are likely designed to be less efficient than the average group, not every group.

The only factual parameter the game has set is 90 minutes.

[Goji1639]

Those expectations are no less worth accommodating than general expectations of etiquette. Heck, the things that allow for a run to be smoothly and enjoyably finished in the usual 15-25 minutes are all literally matters of etiquette, just ones specific to that vein of activity.

The expectations we're obligated to accommodate are the ones enforced in the game. Parsers/Parser data can't be shared because avoiding that kind of call out is the expectation of etiquette SE has for us. This isn't about what we think is worth accommodating; this isn't our game. Too many of you like to pretend that you personally define what everyone's responsibility to you is.

But why are we affording to anything less than a legal obligation any and all leniency? We're not required to be nice to each other, only to avoid provably disparaging remarks, but being nice (or at least, not unkind, even if less than provably) should be expected, no? Why would the same not be true for our efforts in or preparedness for content, through which we not get more engaged in the game and that shared experience but also value each other's time?

I never implied that we're obligated to be nice to each other beyond what is enforced in the game. I'd prefer everyone try their absolute hardest every time and be nice to each other in the process, but, like I said, these preferences don't translate to responsibility.

[Raelsar]

So you imply that hardcore players can't have fun because they want to perform well?
Also would you mind explaining what do you mean by *Casual players don't like to be measured, they just want to have fun.* Does this mean that they don't care if they are a burden for other 3/7/24 people?
I will repeat myself again, no one ever expects anyone to have a "perfect performance". Just be decent, even if you're a casual.
Time and time again I am disappointed that it's a sin in this game to be good, yet it's completely fine to be an absolute pepega gamer that just presses one button or none at all. Others will carry right? Don't you dare asking someone to do their job, what if they are having fun and you will ruin it? And I am in no way talking about NEW players. I couldn't care less if new players in lower level content are *bad*.

No, it's actually a lot simpler than that.

The moment you attach a number and start measuring players, casual players feel under pressure to perform well; it completely drains the fun out of the game for them, period. The only measure they really care about is whether or not the boss goes down, and casuals are usually at least trying to contribute. It's that act of attaching a number relating to their performance just undermines the experience for them; they don't find themselves able to enjoy the game anymore as their either worrying or dreading the results of their performance being measured.

For those who do care about measuring and improving their performance, and even enjoy doing so... that's the point you've left the "casual" mindset and are starting to approach the "hardcore" mentality.
This isn't a stab at the "hardcore" crowd, but you have to recognize that a LOT of players really don't want to even think about measuring their performance; the burden of that will ruin their experience with the game.

There's also the issue of keeping parsing under control. Throw out the claim of being reasonable all you want... it NEVER stays there, often ever-escalating to the point its impossible for any new or learning players to gain a foothold on even content that's intended to be easy. I've seen it happen many times before, unfortunately. Heck, I've even used similar tools in other games and I didn't like how they affected my own behaviour; I caught myself turning into a jerk and obsessing over minor details, so I promptly put an end to it right then and there. Even if players aren't expecting "perfect performance" now... it slowly but surely becomes "exceptional performance in ALL content", including content where it has no place in (including the lowest level dungeons).

And I wish I wasn't speaking from experience here... but that's the truth of the matter. The tools can be fine when they're used appropriately.
The trouble is that unless something like the current detente SE has with them is in place, they are *GUARANTEED* to be abused.

[Imora]

What I can't figure out is how so many people can't take their hobbies seriously.

[Miracle_Diva]

snip

My, my.
If you go from one thread to another, you can see how XIV community goes from the best people have seen in MMO to terrible stat abusers. /s
First of all, you don't become a hardcore player just because you start caring about your own performance. As a casual player myself, I don't feel pressure when there could be a potential number attached to me, so please don't speak for all casual players here. I personally think it's fun to do as best as I can in any content I go to, tho I am not so interested in the actual "hardcore" stuff and this does not make me a hardcore player.
First of all, no one is asking to have parsers in low level dungeons. Second, it is not needed for throwing dirt around, but for making people feel somewhat responsible for their play in a GROUP CONTENT.
Again, I don't see any actual reasonable explanation of why it is fine to jump around lazy casuals that don't want their "fun" ruined by toxic hardcore players, yet it is not fine to ask of somewhat decent performance in ONLINE GAME, where you interact with OTHER people. Why do you protect those who do not want to drag their own weight in a group content? Why is it okay to absolutely disrespect others' time when you join a group? Why is it fine to "let them play how they want" while they don't give a damn about anyone else but themselves? Why only THEIR fun matters?

[Raelsar]

My, my.
First of all, no one is asking to have parsers in low level dungeons. Second, it is not needed for throwing dirt around, but for making people feel somewhat responsible for their play in a GROUP CONTENT.
Again, I don't see any actual reasonable explanation of why it is fine to jump around lazy casuals that don't want their "fun" ruined by toxic hardcore players, yet it is not fine to ask of somewhat decent performance in ONLINE GAME, where you interact with OTHER people. Why do you protect those who do not want to drag their own weight in a group content? Why is it okay to absolutely disrespect others' time when you join a group? Why is it fine to "let them play how they want" while they don't give a damn about anyone else but themselves? Why only THEIR fun matters?

Indeed, you are playing with other players -- including those who would rather never see a parser in any game ever again, because of negative experiences dealing with people who have abused them. It may not ruin your own experience, but I can personally guarantee that they have ruined the experience for many others.

Now, it's not that those who want parsers don't matter, but you're ignoring the other side entirely: those who DO NOT want them because it's a MASSIVE negative to their own experience playing the game. They aren't being lazy or intentionally underperforming, they just don't want anyone shoving a damage meter in their face (or anyone else's for that matter) and berating them over not meeting an arbitrary or even relative standard; so long as the boss goes down, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day.

So how do you keep both sides of the fence happy? The current "detente" is the best one I've seen, which is essentially turning a blind eye to their use so long as the data is kept to yourself despite it technically being against the rules.

Or more simply -- no harm, no foul. And it's working.

---

To give some context, I played WoW for many years; I've seen many cases where they've been used right... and infinitely more cases of the ludicrous excesses and abuses of parsers. There it actually does bleed into leveling content, the optimization mindset is so dominant and the community so petty that they'll boot players from groups for not meeting ridiculous and entirely unnecessary standards. Parsers aren't the only cause of the issues in that game, but they are a major driving force behind it; I simply do not want to see the same decay in the community happen here.

In the end, parsers will drive more players away than it will help draw players in or retain current ones. Because you'd be a fool to expect that the "average player" will use them in a reasonable and productive manner.

[Awha]

In the end if the group wishes to remove an element that does not meet their expectations then that is on the group in question. What exactly is the problem? Or is the issue in question people's feelings will be hurt and thus potentially lead to fewer players wanting to play FFXIV?

[Xia_Thas]

In the end if the group wishes to remove an element that does not meet their expectations then that is on the group in question. What exactly is the problem?

Please consult Raider.io for more information regarding inquiry: Toxicity

[linayar]

What I can't figure out is how so many people can't take their hobbies seriously.

You first need to define the hobby. Two people playing a complex game like FFXIV doesn't necessarily share the same hobby.