Parsers add replayability for casual players

[Raelsar]

So you imply that hardcore players can't have fun because they want to perform well?
Also would you mind explaining what do you mean by *Casual players don't like to be measured, they just want to have fun.* Does this mean that they don't care if they are a burden for other 3/7/24 people?
I will repeat myself again, no one ever expects anyone to have a "perfect performance". Just be decent, even if you're a casual.
Time and time again I am disappointed that it's a sin in this game to be good, yet it's completely fine to be an absolute pepega gamer that just presses one button or none at all. Others will carry right? Don't you dare asking someone to do their job, what if they are having fun and you will ruin it? And I am in no way talking about NEW players. I couldn't care less if new players in lower level content are *bad*.

No, it's actually a lot simpler than that.

The moment you attach a number and start measuring players, casual players feel under pressure to perform well; it completely drains the fun out of the game for them, period. The only measure they really care about is whether or not the boss goes down, and casuals are usually at least trying to contribute. It's that act of attaching a number relating to their performance just undermines the experience for them; they don't find themselves able to enjoy the game anymore as their either worrying or dreading the results of their performance being measured.

For those who do care about measuring and improving their performance, and even enjoy doing so... that's the point you've left the "casual" mindset and are starting to approach the "hardcore" mentality.
This isn't a stab at the "hardcore" crowd, but you have to recognize that a LOT of players really don't want to even think about measuring their performance; the burden of that will ruin their experience with the game.

There's also the issue of keeping parsing under control. Throw out the claim of being reasonable all you want... it NEVER stays there, often ever-escalating to the point its impossible for any new or learning players to gain a foothold on even content that's intended to be easy. I've seen it happen many times before, unfortunately. Heck, I've even used similar tools in other games and I didn't like how they affected my own behaviour; I caught myself turning into a jerk and obsessing over minor details, so I promptly put an end to it right then and there. Even if players aren't expecting "perfect performance" now... it slowly but surely becomes "exceptional performance in ALL content", including content where it has no place in (including the lowest level dungeons).

And I wish I wasn't speaking from experience here... but that's the truth of the matter. The tools can be fine when they're used appropriately.
The trouble is that unless something like the current detente SE has with them is in place, they are *GUARANTEED* to be abused.

[Miracle_Diva]

snip

My, my.
If you go from one thread to another, you can see how XIV community goes from the best people have seen in MMO to terrible stat abusers. /s
First of all, you don't become a hardcore player just because you start caring about your own performance. As a casual player myself, I don't feel pressure when there could be a potential number attached to me, so please don't speak for all casual players here. I personally think it's fun to do as best as I can in any content I go to, tho I am not so interested in the actual "hardcore" stuff and this does not make me a hardcore player.
First of all, no one is asking to have parsers in low level dungeons. Second, it is not needed for throwing dirt around, but for making people feel somewhat responsible for their play in a GROUP CONTENT.
Again, I don't see any actual reasonable explanation of why it is fine to jump around lazy casuals that don't want their "fun" ruined by toxic hardcore players, yet it is not fine to ask of somewhat decent performance in ONLINE GAME, where you interact with OTHER people. Why do you protect those who do not want to drag their own weight in a group content? Why is it okay to absolutely disrespect others' time when you join a group? Why is it fine to "let them play how they want" while they don't give a damn about anyone else but themselves? Why only THEIR fun matters?

[Raelsar]

My, my.
First of all, no one is asking to have parsers in low level dungeons. Second, it is not needed for throwing dirt around, but for making people feel somewhat responsible for their play in a GROUP CONTENT.
Again, I don't see any actual reasonable explanation of why it is fine to jump around lazy casuals that don't want their "fun" ruined by toxic hardcore players, yet it is not fine to ask of somewhat decent performance in ONLINE GAME, where you interact with OTHER people. Why do you protect those who do not want to drag their own weight in a group content? Why is it okay to absolutely disrespect others' time when you join a group? Why is it fine to "let them play how they want" while they don't give a damn about anyone else but themselves? Why only THEIR fun matters?

Indeed, you are playing with other players -- including those who would rather never see a parser in any game ever again, because of negative experiences dealing with people who have abused them. It may not ruin your own experience, but I can personally guarantee that they have ruined the experience for many others.

Now, it's not that those who want parsers don't matter, but you're ignoring the other side entirely: those who DO NOT want them because it's a MASSIVE negative to their own experience playing the game. They aren't being lazy or intentionally underperforming, they just don't want anyone shoving a damage meter in their face (or anyone else's for that matter) and berating them over not meeting an arbitrary or even relative standard; so long as the boss goes down, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day.

So how do you keep both sides of the fence happy? The current "detente" is the best one I've seen, which is essentially turning a blind eye to their use so long as the data is kept to yourself despite it technically being against the rules.

Or more simply -- no harm, no foul. And it's working.

---

To give some context, I played WoW for many years; I've seen many cases where they've been used right... and infinitely more cases of the ludicrous excesses and abuses of parsers. There it actually does bleed into leveling content, the optimization mindset is so dominant and the community so petty that they'll boot players from groups for not meeting ridiculous and entirely unnecessary standards. Parsers aren't the only cause of the issues in that game, but they are a major driving force behind it; I simply do not want to see the same decay in the community happen here.

In the end, parsers will drive more players away than it will help draw players in or retain current ones. Because you'd be a fool to expect that the "average player" will use them in a reasonable and productive manner.

[Miracle_Diva]

parsers will drive more players away than it will help draw players in or retain current ones. Because you'd be a fool to expect that the "average player" will use them in a reasonable and productive manner.

I don't want to sound rude, but it feels like you just have some personal issues with parsers. You keep talking about how you can guarantee that sooo many people were bullied, yet I see no proof or examples of your "personal experiences".
I can talk about my Personal Experiences too, and people don't use tools to trash on others in those.

Heck, I've even used similar tools in other games and I didn't like how they affected my own behaviour; I caught myself turning into a jerk and obsessing over minor details, so I promptly put an end to it right then and there.

Your words from your previous posts.
I've used tools like parser in different games, yet it didn't affect me the way it affected you.
As I said before, please stop talking for everyone.

[Awha]

I don't want to sound rude, but it feels like you just have some personal issues with parsers. You keep talking about how you can guarantee that sooo many people were bullied, yet I see no proof or examples or your "personal experiences".
I can talk about my Personal Experiences too, and people don't use tools to trash on others in those.


Your words from your previous posts.
I've used tools like parser in different games, yet it didn't affect me the way it affected you.
As I said before, please stop talking for everyone.

Meh I am all for parsing but let us not kid ourselves people were and will be bullied for their performance in a more open manner then currently.

Though the true crux of the issue is not that tool will be misused but whether that is really an issue that needs to be dealt with proactively instead of reactively with reports, and will reports put such a strain on the current GM staff that would it warrent extra cost and or would it deter people from joining at such a rate that it would hault the growth of tbe game in a meaningful way.

Issue is no side really has the means to answer said questions which foster this well we cannot be certain either way so let us err on the side of caution.

Do not agree but I get it.

Personally I don't mind Parsers and think they are a good tool for measuring yadda yadda yadda but I also acknowledge and understand the distaste of dealing with those who use it to be toxic or down right abusive. People like to tack on all sorts of agendas and assumptions to this topic to the point even the word "Parser" is controversial with no context.

We all know it can be good. We all know people use it for bad. If the subject is met with INSTANT Hathfields and McCoys levels of war there's no way the devs are endorsing it.

What we got right now with the "Blind Eye" Approach is as good as you can get for a compromise for something that's "Technically" against ToS. You have it, You get to use a Parser, YOU WON. Anything "Official" is going to be garbage compared to what's out there now so why such a heavy push for something that you'll complain about anyways?

Ets Just Gaem, Why Yu Heff To Be Mad?

Personally I have an issue with the blind eye approach since I have a inherent disdain for selective rule enforcement. Rather they just openly said you csn use a parser but if you misuse and are found guilty action will be taken against your account.

Instead just don't ask don't tell. Though my issue I had with person I asked the original question which resulted in me wondering what exactly is wrong with removing or not wanting to play with a random person that does not meet whatever standard the group may have.

[Xia_Thas]

Personally I have an issue with the blind eye approach since I have a inherent disdain for selective rule enforcement. Rather they just openly said you csn use a parser but if you misuse and are found guilty action will be taken against your account.

Instead just don't ask don't tell.

I can understand that. If you applied this approach to something else against ToS like let's say RMT, it'd be seen with immense negative feedback. Just goes to further show how not black and white "Having A Parser" as a topic is.

[Awha]

I can understand that. If you applied this approach to something else against ToS like let's say RMT, it'd be seen with immense negative feedback. Just goes to further show how not black and white "Having A Parser" as a topic is.

Oh in my eyes it is extremely black and white. Just allow them let GM's do their job when people report issues of misuse.

I personally think this whole grey area thing is just a product of trying too hard to protect the feelings of others.

[TaleraRistain]

First of all, no one is asking to have parsers in low level dungeons.

This is literally what the OP asked for. They said they don't do Extremes or Savage. They want parsers to gauge their performance in normal content.