Are tanks currently too OP?

[Undeadfire]

Fine you got me by the damage scaling. Still rather call it to War based to the Nascent Flash only.

Edit: If Warrior didn't have Nascent Flash I would've easily submitted to Drk, but having immortality for 5 seconds every 30 seconds (Plus no death every 4 mins under 8 seconds) man how can it not be the king of aoes.

[LeonKeyh]

That will happen as they are not just knocking zeros off hp, damage and healing. They are adjusting the scaling factor of the primary and secondary stats as well which will shrink the output gaps between ilevels. Going from a 10% increase in power every 10 ilevels to a 5% increase over the same period means that Going from say i430 to i530 would be a ~62.9% increases in character power rather than the ~159.3% it is now.

Unless they're going back on what they said, they stated that 80-90 would be the same growth rate as 70-80 was. Also, the enemy scaling would be changing as well to match the updated player scaling.


The stat squish should only affect unsynced content.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Unless they're going back on what they said, they stated that 80-90 would be the same growth rate as 70-80 was. Also, the enemy scaling would be changing as well to match the updated player scaling.

The stat squish should only affect unsynced content.

You are misunderstanding what was being explained. The growth rate from 70 to 80 in ShB was very shallow as compared to 50 to 60 in HW and 60 to 70 in StB (the steep scaling is incredibly noticeable in StB as Def/M.Def increases by nearly 50% between level 60 i270 and level 65 i276 which is why Bardam hits so hard). They are going to maintain ShB's shallow growth rate in Endwalker while also decreasing the output rates of PCs and Enemies. They are doing in such a way that when doing on ilevel content characters will not feel nerfed even if the numbers appearing are lower. The "unsynced" content explanation was actually referring to any time you overgeared a piece of content (such as LotA): players will maintain the same relative output when doing content at the intended ilevel (doing LotA in i70 to i90 gear) while being weaker while doing content overgeared (doing LotA in i130).

[Vyrerus]

WAR loses to DRK in AoE and ST burst. DRK is the current king of bursts.

Auto Direct Hit/Critical is a con and plays against WAR when comparing against other tanks. Other tank potencies are balanced with WARs automatic DCrits.

For the sake of argument, we will have 8 GCDs for a trash pack(typical with a very good party of DPS and healer damage). I'll even throw in Storm's Eye for free.

WAR
IR = 5x (250*2)
3x Infuriate = (400*2)

Total AoE potency = 4900. (5,390 with storm's eye)

DRK
Delirium = (210*5)
2x Unleash = 300
Stalwart Soul = 160
Flood of Darkness = (300*5)
Abyssal Drain = 200
Living Shadow = (380*3)
Salted Earth = (60*5)

Total AoE potency = 4,650 (5,115 with Darkside).

Oh no! DRK is lower?
That is before DRK even Crits
Crit rate of 28% with crit damage of 60% at current BiS gives DRK 859 more potency putting their total at 5,974.

Oh but wait theres more!
Direct Hit rate of 18% with Direct Hit damage of 25% at current bis gives DRK 269 more potency putting their total at 6,243.
and that is just average crit/direct hit rates. DRK could get 70% crit in that instance or 10% crit and still win.

You can however take pride and solace in the fact that WAR still ultimately is the god of dungeon tanking due to being able to remove a healer completely and turning that 4th party member into another full fledged BLM that does more than double WHM DPS in dungeons. Who would've thought that Nascent scaling with damage would make it obscene in AoE? /s

This is a bit skewed for a few reasons.

It doesn't take into account that WAR and DRK gear differently. WAR's crits will be stronger for DRK wanting Direct over DET. WAR also has Vengeance, which is 55 potency attacks, available every 2 minutes, and you can sync it to Inner Release to have the 55 potency counters auto direct crit. If we're assuming that the pulls last for all 8 globals, then that means that every enemy in the pull will have struck the Warrior the full five times with Vengeance up. That's an extra 275 potency per mob, assuming they are all physical( and something like 550x4 275x1 if you've lined it up with IR, so +2475 for the WAR before Eye).

Personally I like tanking dungeons more on DRK, because Flood allows for easier control of pulls, especially with trigger happy DPS we have these days, no need to stop and get off a second GCD to solidify things, and also no need to prebuff/maintain Eye the whole run. But like, comparing a DRK's full damage pull versus a WAR's full damage pull, and they're both beastly up there. WAR has the edge though, unless magic pull, unless the WHM goofs'em, but pretty much all tanks have to gauge whether or not they can get their big stuff in on a pull or whether or not it'll better serve the next.

[AC9Breaker]

Unless they're going back on what they said, they stated that 80-90 would be the same growth rate as 70-80 was. Also, the enemy scaling would be changing as well to match the updated player scaling.


The stat squish should only affect unsynced content.

Where da evidence only gonna effect unsynched content tho???

[FallenWings]

This is a bit skewed for a few reasons.

It doesn't take into account that WAR and DRK gear differently. WAR's crits will be stronger for DRK wanting Direct over DET. WAR also has Vengeance, which is 55 potency attacks, available every 2 minutes, and you can sync it to Inner Release to have the 55 potency counters auto direct crit. If we're assuming that the pulls last for all 8 globals, then that means that every enemy in the pull will have struck the Warrior the full five times with Vengeance up. That's an extra 275 potency per mob, assuming they are all physical( and something like 550x4 275x1 if you've lined it up with IR, so +2475 for the WAR before Eye).

Personally I like tanking dungeons more on DRK, because Flood allows for easier control of pulls, especially with trigger happy DPS we have these days, no need to stop and get off a second GCD to solidify things, and also no need to prebuff/maintain Eye the whole run. But like, comparing a DRK's full damage pull versus a WAR's full damage pull, and they're both beastly up there. WAR has the edge though, unless magic pull, unless the WHM goofs'em, but pretty much all tanks have to gauge whether or not they can get their big stuff in on a pull or whether or not it'll better serve the next.

I always do end up forgetting about Vengeance. A relic of WAR having extra imbalance for no reason. But yes DET difference and Vengeance is a large oversight.

WAR
4900 + 550(Vengenace assuming all 5 ticks auto crit for the sake of giving WAR extra = 5*(55*2))
5450*Det (1.122 modifier at 3113 Det)
6,114.9*1.1 (Storm's Eye)

6,726.39

DRK

4710 (60 added due to Salted Earth being 6 ticks and not 5 thanks to instant tick on cast)
4710*Det (1.095 modifier at 2454 Det)
5,157.45*1.1 (Darkside)
5673.195*1.168 (Crit average)
6,626.29176*1.045 (Dhit average)

6,924.47

Again, it still further illustrates that Automatic Critical and Direct Hit is a con for WAR, and that is with giving WAR free Storm's Eye(3 Single Target GCDs), a quicker than usual third infuriate and auto crit on all vengeance ticks. The gap widens should DRK just crit/dhit more or if there is a WHM present or Arm's Length is used. DRK also has 2 plunges, CnS and 4 Living Shadows ST attacks over WARs 1 Upheaval and 1 Onslaught.

But again as stated in the previous post, Nascent Flash nulls it all anyways thanks to it being busted in AoE.

(Side note: Big pulls after the first one; WAR can have Storm's Eye running to negate the initial 3 GCD loss of putting it up but DRK can also bank a Dark Arts giving them 441.05 more AoE potency)

[Vyrerus]

I always do end up forgetting about Vengeance.

You're really just going to ignore that critical hit puts an extra critical hit damage modifier on critical hits? Has a calculation for that not been mapped? As for those single target things, we can't assume that DRK's skills will crit or direct, whereas WAR's will automatically Direct Crit too. You can't really say, "If the DRK just crits more." Cause it's just as/more likely that it will crit less(won't crit). WAR's auto attacks also automatically direct crit under IR. I don't really see the big gain of DRK's extra singles over that.

Also, let's talk about the elephant in the room. If the DRK is synced for any reason, they have no direct hit rate at all, unless food/synced gearset is equipped. It can only edge over WAR on AOE damage then, in the most current setting. Unless the player is dedicated to having old sets lying around.

Like sure, DRK has a slight edge at the top, but the idea of WAR's direct crits isn't really a con. It just has less skills that deal damage (at least in this comparison).

In the in-between pulls when the cooldowns are down, WAR's general AOE skills that we haven't compared here are Overpower and Mythril Tempest. A 130 cleave into a 200 circle. Compared to DRK's 150 Unleash into the 160 Stalwart Soul. 330 vs. 310. Spenders being a 250 reg or 400 auto Dcrit to a 210. How does it all map after that first pull? Who gets to do their big potency rotation more throughout the dungeon? Obviously, it's all situational and depends, but this ain't no Grand Canyon of a gap. The gap that you say widens when the DRK crits more narrows when the DRK doesn't crit/direct. Which is actually more likely to happen.

Also, as far as banking that extra flood goes, while it is possible it's just as easily goofed as Vengeance ticks. It implies that the DRK puts up TBN towards the end of a pull, and that the monsters still break it, as if pulls die uniformly (they don't due to decaying AOEs and auto attacks).

[FallenWings]

You're really just going to ignore that critical hit puts an extra critical hit damage modifier on critical hits? Has a calculation for that not been mapped? As for those single target things, we can't assume that DRK's skills will crit or direct, whereas WAR's will automatically Direct Crit too. You can't really say, "If the DRK just crits more." Cause it's just as/more likely that it will crit less(won't crit). WAR's auto attacks also automatically direct crit under IR. I don't really see the big gain of DRK's extra singles over that.

Also, let's talk about the elephant in the room. If the DRK is synced for any reason, they have no direct hit rate at all, unless food/synced gearset is equipped. It can only edge over WAR on AOE damage then, in the most current setting. Unless the player is dedicated to having old sets lying around.

Like sure, DRK has a slight edge at the top, but the idea of WAR's direct crits isn't really a con. It just has less skills that deal damage (at least in this comparison).

In the in-between pulls when the cooldowns are down, WAR's general AOE skills that we haven't compared here are Overpower and Mythril Tempest. A 130 cleave into a 200 circle. Compared to DRK's 150 Unleash into the 160 Stalwart Soul. 330 vs. 310. Spenders being a 250 reg or 400 auto Dcrit to a 210. How does it all map after that first pull? Who gets to do their big potency rotation more throughout the dungeon? Obviously, it's all situational and depends, but this ain't no Grand Canyon of a gap. The gap that you say widens when the DRK crits more narrows when the DRK doesn't crit/direct. Which is actually more likely to happen.

Also, as far as banking that extra flood goes, while it is possible it's just as easily goofed as Vengeance ticks. It implies that the DRK puts up TBN towards the end of a pull, and that the monsters still break it, as if pulls die uniformly (they don't due to decaying AOEs and auto attacks).

The potency for WAR is all automatic critical direct hit damage. Hence the 250*2 for Decimate and 400*2 for Chaotic Cyclone. (Critical direct hit is x*1.6*1.25 or simply *2)

Vengenace is 55 by itself. So under IR which automatically critical direct hits, it becomes 55*2. Since it can only have 5 hits it is 5*(55*2). (Mind you only 3 or 4 of those ticks should be automatic direct critical hit under IR but for the sake of ease of calc, I've given them automatic dcrits anyways).

The total potency for WAR is all that WAR can possibly do due to *automatic* critical direct hits.

DRK doesn't have 0% crit/dhit and you don't factor it like that, hence the average modifer applied (1.168 for crit and 1.045 for dhit).

DRK has a lower GCD average because Flood of Shadow exists. It is how DRK does more/equalize with other tanks better GCDs.

Automatic Direct Critical Hit is still a con because WARs damage is capped alongside the shared gearing issue they uniquely have. DRK can achieve much more damage through RNG or it can do the average amount as expected of it's gear which still outdoes WARs cap. (This comment is more directed at WAR fundamentally rather than specifically in AoE burst, in which it is also a con imo).

Synced content is an interesting consideration, but bare in mind that WAR also loses all it's Dets melds. So in this scenario the 3% det discrepancy and the 4.5% dhit discrepancy makes them both a wash.

(WARs total drops to 6,564.5 when removing their det melds, and DRK total drops to 6,626.29 when removing their direct hit melds.)

[Vyrerus]

The potency for WAR

I'm talking about the effect of Critical Hit as a stat. Critical hits at base work as you describe, but the more of the stat you stack, the higher the crit damage modifier becomes. At values of 4000 crit or above at level 80, for instance, critical hit damage gets a x1.62 modifier to its base value. Not 1.6.

Also, you can't just plug the crit average into DRK's total potency. That's not an accurate representation of the increase critical hit has on DRK's total damage, because the critical hits aren't guaranteed to happen on anything, let alone their highest potency attacks. For example, Unleash may crit, direct, or not, but then Stalwart Soul doesn't. Whereas we get a fairly clean picture of WAR's potential DPS, DRK's is murky, because you've got a mathematical assumption on something that's fluid. You have to apply the average crit and direct rate to DRK's individual potencies, and then add the products together. But even that just shows you a theoretical high, because actual crits and direct hits when they cannot be forced are so mercurial that the stat weight for them is always actually lower as a damage modifier than what we show on paper. Especially in AOE.

We've also left off the Tenacity mods, though the sets you're using have them equalized, whereas a better WAR set has something like 100 more DET and 300 more TEN than the DRK set, boosting WAR's numbers a little higher than we see here.

So for DRK we have

(210*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*5 = 1543.67 for Delirium + Quietus (1264.725)
(150*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*2 = 441.05 for Unleashes (180.675)
(160*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095) = 235.23 for Stalwart Soul (192.75)
(300*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*5 = 2205.25 for the Floods (1806.75)
(200*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095) = 294.03 for Abyssal Drain (240.9)
(300*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*3 = 1323.15 for the AOE attacks from Esteem (1084.05)
(60*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*6 = 529.26 for Salted Earth (433.62)

Yielding a total of 6571.64 potency for DRK (little bit higher if we accounted for TEN). Which is higher than it will be in reality, because of the aforementioned nature of RNG based damage. While it could spike higher sometimes, it is unlikely to do that. Every mob hit by the AOEs get separate rolls for whether they will be crit or direct hit, or not. For DRK there is a theoretical minimum that you will often times see. Those numbers after in parenthesis are that, and they yield 5384.145.

For WAR we have
(400*1.1*1.62*1.25*1.122)*3 = 2999.106 for Chaotic Cyclones from Infuriate
(250*1.1*1.62*1.25*1.122)*5 = 3124.06875 for Decimates from Inner Release
(55*1.1*1.62*1.25*1.122)*4 = 549.8361 for the 4 guaranteed counters from Vengeance
(55*1.1*1.168*1.122) = 79.285 for the 1 counter from Vengeance that cannot possibly be in the IR window.

Yielding 6752.29585 for WAR. Higher than DRK on paper, and far more consistent. Not sure what it would be with 2.43 GCD BIS.


Every time one of DRK's attacks fails to direct or crit something, it doesn't get the weight of crit or direct on the actual damage happening. WAR is keeping up/surpassing DRK in reality, at least in this everything and the kitchen sink comparison across 8 GCDs while DRK has full MP. Of course, if we want to say some of DRK's hits will reach their theoretical maximum, it happens, just not often.

[Mykll]

I love how it started out as "are tanks too op?", and has devolved into "which tank is more op?".