Are tanks currently too OP?

[Awha]

I am a simple lala Nascent Flash is what makes warriors busted in dungeons in my eyes.

[FallenWings]

I'm talking about the effect of Critical Hit as a stat..

If you want to use all the stats then sure.

We'll use the 2.38 sets for both of them listed in: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=849857335

Stat weights listed here: https://www.akhmorning.com/allagan-studies/stats/


DRK
Crit 4175 (28% rate, 63% damage) average modifier is 1.1764
DH 1460 (18% rate) average modifier 1.045
Det 1965 modifer is 1.064
Ten 809 tiier modifier is 1.013
Sks 1523 tier. Modifier is 1.045

WAR
Crit 4077 modifier is 1.624
DH 1.25
Det 3107 tier modifer is 1.109
Ten 875 tier modifier is 1.015

"(300*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*3 = 1323.15 for the AOE attacks from Esteem (1084.05)"

This is incorrect. 300 potency is what is listed on the tooltip but because of pet formula, it's true potency is closer to 360(thanks to not having to suffer the tank trait mastery). You can test this ingame by eyeballing Esteem's hit and compare it to Soul Eater.

(210*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013)*5 = 1,530.4 (Quietus)
(150*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013)*2 = 437.26 (Unleash)
(160*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013) = 233.20 (Stalwart Soul)
(300*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013)*5 = 2,186.28 (Flood)
(200*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013) = 291.50 (Abyssal Drain)
(360*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013)*3 = 1,574.12 (Living Shadow)
(60*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013*1.045)*6 = 548.31 (Salted Earth)

Total 6,801.07
(Btw doing the same formula to the total gets the same exact result so..)

WAR
1200 (Chaotic Cyclone)
1250 (IRDecimate)
220 (IRVengeance)

2,670*1.1*1.624*1.25*1.109*1.015 = 6,711.16

55*1.1*1.17*1.109*1.015 = 79.69 (Vengeance)

Total 6,790.85

Yes RNG is fluid and DRK may not crit roll sometimes but that is the point of applying the average modifier. DRK is not getting their benefits of the stats when they don't crit/dhit, and they are getting the benefit of it when they do. What happens when DRK gets godroll 70% rate? It blows WAR off the source. That's also why Auto crit/dhit sucks fundamentally *imo*.

It is not *safe* to assume 0% crit/dhit amounts in a realistic situation when there are very many rolls for it with each instance of attack.

And again, the calculations above are being generous with WAR. For the first pull I'll strip away Storm's Eye because of the potency loss of putting it up, suddenly WARs total drops dramatically down to 6,173.48.

The whole hypothesis in the end is flawed because there's a 6th usage of Quietus missing for DRK isntead of a 2nd unleash, third Chaotic Cyclone cannot fit in 8 GCDs, and Unleashx2+Stalwart Soul > Storm's Eye combo by a magnitude of the 3+++ targets in the pull sequence. Not to mention giving WAR all those breaks yet not giving DRK their Dark Arts stock. WHM will also shit on WARs vengeance in a regular standard composition as well.

I will however stand corrected on the weight of gear difference with det and vengeance closing the gap between the two classes.

[Vyrerus]

The whole hypothesis in the end is flawed

Yes it is, but not because of a 6th Quietus, nor just because of the handicaps we're giving WAR. You also seemed to have assumed that the DRK just has the Blood on demand for Living Shadow right off the bat, but it won't even get to bring Living Shadow out until after the 3rd GCD starting with 0 Blood. That means that Esteem isn't even going to do all of its AOEs by the 8th GCD because of the delay inherit when you summon it(it may or may not get to Flood, if the monsters die by 8th GCD). Also, I had to look into it more, but it seems at least according to the Balance's DRK guide, that Esteem's damage is unaffected by Darkside, while the pet thing is true. That means the total there is 1431.02. Bringing your averaged total on DRK down to 6657.97 (without taking away Esteem's flood).

I understand how average weights work, but reason that they do work is because they are set against the backdrop of a much longer encounter. If encounters were all so short as the one we describe, I'm sure that the mathematicians would weight stats differently. You notice that our back and forth here is, "What if DRK's RNG is really bad?" vs. "What if DRK's RNG is really good?" It's more likely to be bad, sorry, that's just a fact. If it were more likely to be good, people wouldn't need to do parse runs ad nauseum in order to achieve godlike percentiles. And that's in fights that last an eternity compared to this.

And thank you. I'm not really trying to say that DRK is bad or worse than WAR. I was just trying to say that the gap really isn't so wide. You can think Automatic DCrits are bad conceptually, but I mean, if Delirium did the exact same thing as IR, and they didn't coif DRK's skillset to compensate for it, then we wouldn't even be having something to compare. It's very powerful, due to its consistency, but irksome compared to old WAR imo. I very much miss +50% Berserk and +20% Maim.

[Absurdity]

I very much miss +50% Berserk and +20% Maim.

I mean not only did it make you do BIG NUMBERS™ but I'd argue that the 3 buffed Fell Cleaves felt significantly more impactful and rewarding because they were less common and required more setup than "press 1 button and go brrrr"

[Kalaam]

I mean not only did it make you do BIG NUMBERS™ but I'd argue that the 3 buffed Fell Cleaves felt significantly more impactful and rewarding because they were less common and required more setup than "press 1 button and go brrrr"

I must say that using essences and lost fonts etc in Bozja on my tanks feels pretty great. Using two abilities, taking a relatively high risk (constant life-drain for a few seconds) for a big burst of damage is fun.
It's always fun when you have to set it up a bit, like a Ninja's burst window.

[ReiMakoto]

I mean not only did it make you do BIG NUMBERS™ but I'd argue that the 3 buffed Fell Cleaves felt significantly more impactful and rewarding because they were less common and required more setup than "press 1 button and go brrrr"

Its exactly this. IIRC fell cleave was basically the highest potency attack in the game in HW (outside of wildfire on mch being a true snowball), so lining up 3 in buffs was super satisfying (if a bit weird cos you had to pop defensive cds to get them all in). In a similar vein its why I really liked 4.1 warrior. Sure you ended hitting a shit load of fell cleaves when IR and Bezerk liked up, but you had to set up your beast gauge and enter bezerk on the right step in your combo in order to get all of it, which was way more satisfying than unga bunga.

[LeonKeyh]

You are misunderstanding what was being explained. The growth rate from 70 to 80 in ShB was very shallow as compared to 50 to 60 in HW and 60 to 70 in StB (the steep scaling is incredibly noticeable in StB as Def/M.Def increases by nearly 50% between level 60 i270 and level 65 i276 which is why Bardam hits so hard). They are going to maintain ShB's shallow growth rate in Endwalker while also decreasing the output rates of PCs and Enemies. They are doing in such a way that when doing on ilevel content characters will not feel nerfed even if the numbers appearing are lower. The "unsynced" content explanation was actually referring to any time you overgeared a piece of content (such as LotA): players will maintain the same relative output when doing content at the intended ilevel (doing LotA in i70 to i90 gear) while being weaker while doing content overgeared (doing LotA in i130).

I understand the confusion, but I do understand completely what they had talked about.

The "unsynced" comment was not about what you're talking about, unless they made another announcement or explanation after the Live Letter. The reason why they brought up unsync content being "harder" was because the power gap between max level and lower levels will be made smaller.

Where da evidence only gonna effect unsynched content tho???

To simplify it into "power level" (These numbers are just made up, I don't remember the actual stat growth rates that they mentioned); If the base level 50 NPCs have a "power level" of 100, base level 60 have a power level of 200, base level 70 have a power level of 300, and base level 80 have a power level of 350, then a level 80 (power level 350) doing level 60 content (power level of 200) would have +150 "power level" above that content.

If we're doing a stat squish, then those "power levels" would change; base level 60 would have 150, base level 70 would have 200, base level 80 would have 225, and base level 90 would have 275 (keeping ShB's growth); This means that a level 80 (225) doing level 60 content (150) would only be +75 power level and a level 90 (275) doing level 60 content (150) would only be +125 power level. This means that a level 90 doing level 60 content _unsynced_ would have a more difficult time than a level 80 pre-squish. That's what they mean by unsynced content being more difficult.

It matters because +100 might be required to solo a dungeon/trial, and then it won't be possible (or easy) to do anymore.

Again, unless they have said something _outside of the explanation from the Live Letter_ (I welcome additional information about it), the stat squish will not have an impact on at-level content OR synced content, it will only have an impact on older, unsynced content. It will make soloing/duoing/undersizing content that is not synced.

[LogicMouse]

Sounds like you should switch to Tank

[kpxmanifesto]

Holy crap this thread blew up. Must be some good discussion going on.