Are tanks currently too OP?

[AC9Breaker]

Unless they're going back on what they said, they stated that 80-90 would be the same growth rate as 70-80 was. Also, the enemy scaling would be changing as well to match the updated player scaling.


The stat squish should only affect unsynced content.

Where da evidence only gonna effect unsynched content tho???

[Undeadfire]

Fine you got me by the damage scaling. Still rather call it to War based to the Nascent Flash only.

Edit: If Warrior didn't have Nascent Flash I would've easily submitted to Drk, but having immortality for 5 seconds every 30 seconds (Plus no death every 4 mins under 8 seconds) man how can it not be the king of aoes.

[Vyrerus]

The potency for WAR

I'm talking about the effect of Critical Hit as a stat. Critical hits at base work as you describe, but the more of the stat you stack, the higher the crit damage modifier becomes. At values of 4000 crit or above at level 80, for instance, critical hit damage gets a x1.62 modifier to its base value. Not 1.6.

Also, you can't just plug the crit average into DRK's total potency. That's not an accurate representation of the increase critical hit has on DRK's total damage, because the critical hits aren't guaranteed to happen on anything, let alone their highest potency attacks. For example, Unleash may crit, direct, or not, but then Stalwart Soul doesn't. Whereas we get a fairly clean picture of WAR's potential DPS, DRK's is murky, because you've got a mathematical assumption on something that's fluid. You have to apply the average crit and direct rate to DRK's individual potencies, and then add the products together. But even that just shows you a theoretical high, because actual crits and direct hits when they cannot be forced are so mercurial that the stat weight for them is always actually lower as a damage modifier than what we show on paper. Especially in AOE.

We've also left off the Tenacity mods, though the sets you're using have them equalized, whereas a better WAR set has something like 100 more DET and 300 more TEN than the DRK set, boosting WAR's numbers a little higher than we see here.

So for DRK we have

(210*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*5 = 1543.67 for Delirium + Quietus (1264.725)
(150*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*2 = 441.05 for Unleashes (180.675)
(160*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095) = 235.23 for Stalwart Soul (192.75)
(300*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*5 = 2205.25 for the Floods (1806.75)
(200*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095) = 294.03 for Abyssal Drain (240.9)
(300*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*3 = 1323.15 for the AOE attacks from Esteem (1084.05)
(60*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*6 = 529.26 for Salted Earth (433.62)

Yielding a total of 6571.64 potency for DRK (little bit higher if we accounted for TEN). Which is higher than it will be in reality, because of the aforementioned nature of RNG based damage. While it could spike higher sometimes, it is unlikely to do that. Every mob hit by the AOEs get separate rolls for whether they will be crit or direct hit, or not. For DRK there is a theoretical minimum that you will often times see. Those numbers after in parenthesis are that, and they yield 5384.145.

For WAR we have
(400*1.1*1.62*1.25*1.122)*3 = 2999.106 for Chaotic Cyclones from Infuriate
(250*1.1*1.62*1.25*1.122)*5 = 3124.06875 for Decimates from Inner Release
(55*1.1*1.62*1.25*1.122)*4 = 549.8361 for the 4 guaranteed counters from Vengeance
(55*1.1*1.168*1.122) = 79.285 for the 1 counter from Vengeance that cannot possibly be in the IR window.

Yielding 6752.29585 for WAR. Higher than DRK on paper, and far more consistent. Not sure what it would be with 2.43 GCD BIS.


Every time one of DRK's attacks fails to direct or crit something, it doesn't get the weight of crit or direct on the actual damage happening. WAR is keeping up/surpassing DRK in reality, at least in this everything and the kitchen sink comparison across 8 GCDs while DRK has full MP. Of course, if we want to say some of DRK's hits will reach their theoretical maximum, it happens, just not often.

[FallenWings]

I'm talking about the effect of Critical Hit as a stat..

If you want to use all the stats then sure.

We'll use the 2.38 sets for both of them listed in: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=849857335

Stat weights listed here: https://www.akhmorning.com/allagan-studies/stats/


DRK
Crit 4175 (28% rate, 63% damage) average modifier is 1.1764
DH 1460 (18% rate) average modifier 1.045
Det 1965 modifer is 1.064
Ten 809 tiier modifier is 1.013
Sks 1523 tier. Modifier is 1.045

WAR
Crit 4077 modifier is 1.624
DH 1.25
Det 3107 tier modifer is 1.109
Ten 875 tier modifier is 1.015

"(300*1.1*1.168*1.045*1.095)*3 = 1323.15 for the AOE attacks from Esteem (1084.05)"

This is incorrect. 300 potency is what is listed on the tooltip but because of pet formula, it's true potency is closer to 360(thanks to not having to suffer the tank trait mastery). You can test this ingame by eyeballing Esteem's hit and compare it to Soul Eater.

(210*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013)*5 = 1,530.4 (Quietus)
(150*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013)*2 = 437.26 (Unleash)
(160*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013) = 233.20 (Stalwart Soul)
(300*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013)*5 = 2,186.28 (Flood)
(200*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013) = 291.50 (Abyssal Drain)
(360*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013)*3 = 1,574.12 (Living Shadow)
(60*1.1*1.1764*1.045*1.064*1.013*1.045)*6 = 548.31 (Salted Earth)

Total 6,801.07
(Btw doing the same formula to the total gets the same exact result so..)

WAR
1200 (Chaotic Cyclone)
1250 (IRDecimate)
220 (IRVengeance)

2,670*1.1*1.624*1.25*1.109*1.015 = 6,711.16

55*1.1*1.17*1.109*1.015 = 79.69 (Vengeance)

Total 6,790.85

Yes RNG is fluid and DRK may not crit roll sometimes but that is the point of applying the average modifier. DRK is not getting their benefits of the stats when they don't crit/dhit, and they are getting the benefit of it when they do. What happens when DRK gets godroll 70% rate? It blows WAR off the source. That's also why Auto crit/dhit sucks fundamentally *imo*.

It is not *safe* to assume 0% crit/dhit amounts in a realistic situation when there are very many rolls for it with each instance of attack.

And again, the calculations above are being generous with WAR. For the first pull I'll strip away Storm's Eye because of the potency loss of putting it up, suddenly WARs total drops dramatically down to 6,173.48.

The whole hypothesis in the end is flawed because there's a 6th usage of Quietus missing for DRK isntead of a 2nd unleash, third Chaotic Cyclone cannot fit in 8 GCDs, and Unleashx2+Stalwart Soul > Storm's Eye combo by a magnitude of the 3+++ targets in the pull sequence. Not to mention giving WAR all those breaks yet not giving DRK their Dark Arts stock. WHM will also shit on WARs vengeance in a regular standard composition as well.

I will however stand corrected on the weight of gear difference with det and vengeance closing the gap between the two classes.

[Vyrerus]

The whole hypothesis in the end is flawed

Yes it is, but not because of a 6th Quietus, nor just because of the handicaps we're giving WAR. You also seemed to have assumed that the DRK just has the Blood on demand for Living Shadow right off the bat, but it won't even get to bring Living Shadow out until after the 3rd GCD starting with 0 Blood. That means that Esteem isn't even going to do all of its AOEs by the 8th GCD because of the delay inherit when you summon it(it may or may not get to Flood, if the monsters die by 8th GCD). Also, I had to look into it more, but it seems at least according to the Balance's DRK guide, that Esteem's damage is unaffected by Darkside, while the pet thing is true. That means the total there is 1431.02. Bringing your averaged total on DRK down to 6657.97 (without taking away Esteem's flood).

I understand how average weights work, but reason that they do work is because they are set against the backdrop of a much longer encounter. If encounters were all so short as the one we describe, I'm sure that the mathematicians would weight stats differently. You notice that our back and forth here is, "What if DRK's RNG is really bad?" vs. "What if DRK's RNG is really good?" It's more likely to be bad, sorry, that's just a fact. If it were more likely to be good, people wouldn't need to do parse runs ad nauseum in order to achieve godlike percentiles. And that's in fights that last an eternity compared to this.

And thank you. I'm not really trying to say that DRK is bad or worse than WAR. I was just trying to say that the gap really isn't so wide. You can think Automatic DCrits are bad conceptually, but I mean, if Delirium did the exact same thing as IR, and they didn't coif DRK's skillset to compensate for it, then we wouldn't even be having something to compare. It's very powerful, due to its consistency, but irksome compared to old WAR imo. I very much miss +50% Berserk and +20% Maim.

[Absurdity]

I very much miss +50% Berserk and +20% Maim.

I mean not only did it make you do BIG NUMBERS™ but I'd argue that the 3 buffed Fell Cleaves felt significantly more impactful and rewarding because they were less common and required more setup than "press 1 button and go brrrr"

[Kalaam]

I mean not only did it make you do BIG NUMBERS™ but I'd argue that the 3 buffed Fell Cleaves felt significantly more impactful and rewarding because they were less common and required more setup than "press 1 button and go brrrr"

I must say that using essences and lost fonts etc in Bozja on my tanks feels pretty great. Using two abilities, taking a relatively high risk (constant life-drain for a few seconds) for a big burst of damage is fun.
It's always fun when you have to set it up a bit, like a Ninja's burst window.

[ReiMakoto]

I mean not only did it make you do BIG NUMBERS™ but I'd argue that the 3 buffed Fell Cleaves felt significantly more impactful and rewarding because they were less common and required more setup than "press 1 button and go brrrr"

Its exactly this. IIRC fell cleave was basically the highest potency attack in the game in HW (outside of wildfire on mch being a true snowball), so lining up 3 in buffs was super satisfying (if a bit weird cos you had to pop defensive cds to get them all in). In a similar vein its why I really liked 4.1 warrior. Sure you ended hitting a shit load of fell cleaves when IR and Bezerk liked up, but you had to set up your beast gauge and enter bezerk on the right step in your combo in order to get all of it, which was way more satisfying than unga bunga.

[Mykll]

I love how it started out as "are tanks too op?", and has devolved into "which tank is more op?".

[Awha]

I am a simple lala Nascent Flash is what makes warriors busted in dungeons in my eyes.