Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[linayar]

I have always been in the camp that standards are subjective and that is what creates this issue in the first place cause we all have different views on the matter.

I actually think it's the opposite. If there is no objective standard, then there is no issue. If issues arise, it's because people think there is an objective standard, and thus want to say that others are doing it wrong. If you like pineapples on your pizza, I would disagree, but there is no issue because it's subjective.

I operate on a very binary system.

I understand and I'm not trying to change you, but I do think that causes more issue than anything else. I think, for many aspects of life, there are degrees to be considered. Some are more important than others.

[Arillyn]

Oh, don't get me wrong, he was bad. We asked for tank stance multiple times, even said the skill name. His gear was severely outdated for the dungeon, he would never use an AoE and no matter what we tried, he wouldn't say a word to us. Half the time he also just stood there, as if computing his next course of action, instead of running further into the dungeon.

I agree that you usually get results if you simply ask, as is the case 99% of the time, but he was an example of a "so bad you can't believe they exist" player. Need to see it in the entire context of the post; I mentioned it was both rare to encounter this type of guy, and if they truly are hopeless, vote kick existed for a reason- which we promptly used after our tenth time asking.

The story wasn't meant to be some kind of "gotcha" but rather just an example; anecdotal evidence is, after all, not actual evidence.

That sounds like a bot honestly. I so hate getting stuck in a dungeon with a bot. It hasn't happened to me often but when it goes - GRRRRR.

[Awha]

I actually think it's the opposite. If there is no objective standard, then there is no issue. If issues arise, it's because people think there is an objective standard, and thus want to say that others are doing it wrong. If you like pineapples on your pizza, I would disagree, but there is no issue because it's subjective.

I understand and I'm not trying to change you, but I do think that causes more issue than anything else. I think, for many aspects of life, there are degrees to be considered. Some are more important than others.

I agree in an ideal situation it should not be an issue, though in practice I have at least from my own experience it is the opposite. The issue stems in my opinion from an emotional and bias ridden response. For example may not be a one to one comparison. I am a life long vegan, in the end it should not matter if I have non vegan friends yet in the eyes of my family it is considered wrong due to their own personal reasoning which is fair but from experience many have a hard time not letting that personal reason be cause for concern through an emotional repose where they try to convert the person instead of just accepting it.

Like with the whole vote kick thing, people will blast you for removing someone because they do not agree with the reason when largely in terms of what SE actually does. The reason as to why the vote happened should be moot all that should matter is the outcome of the vote.

I get the vote kick is a tad murky cause in theory you are forcing your standard onto another person if they are removed but that also creates other issues then in theory should we never remove someone cause generally I do not think people will ever really find agreement unless big brother SE lays down the law, and enforces said law.

Though I do like pineapple pizza, and I respectfully accept your position of not liking a correct form of pizza. Joking aside I hope what I am saying makes sense why I think having subjective standards on paper is cool but I do not people are mature enough to handle them.

[Saefinn]

Oh, don't get me wrong, he was bad. We asked for tank stance multiple times, even said the skill name. His gear was severely outdated for the dungeon, he would never use an AoE and no matter what we tried, he wouldn't say a word to us. Half the time he also just stood there, as if computing his next course of action, instead of running further into the dungeon.

I agree that you usually get results if you simply ask, as is the case 99% of the time, but he was an example of a "so bad you can't believe they exist" player. Need to see it in the entire context of the post; I mentioned it was both rare to encounter this type of guy, and if they truly are hopeless, vote kick existed for a reason- which we promptly used after our tenth time asking.

The story wasn't meant to be some kind of "gotcha" but rather just an example; anecdotal evidence is, after all, not actual evidence.

Reasonable, my bad for trailing off from a quoted comment of a quoted comment and losing its context, that's on me. But yes, you are right, it sounds like a choice between vote kick or leave and leaving is just too much of a penalty.

[SieyaM]

This conversation comes up all the time and it is rarely about not being able to clear something. Usually someone who thinks a lot of themselves had to spend maybe a few minutes longer on their expert roulette because someone wasn't playing quite the same way that the top 1% of savage raiders play. I run roulette every week to cap tomes and I haven't had a run take more than 15 minutes in months, so these claims that mass numbers of players are completely inept is exaggerated. There is also the option of forming parties yourself of people who play to your desired skill level, and if you are unable to find people willing to run content with you then maybe the problem isn't other players as much as you think it is.

[StriderShinryu]

Be honest, when you told that 44 GLA to put tank stance on, did you say it casually, or did you put together a sterile and unnaturally polite PR statement out of fear of being reported?
Whatever is the answer, I don't think it's controversial at all to say that most people will go for the latter option when they find themselves in that situation.
In my experience people either do that, or outright leave without saying anything and suffer the 30m lock.

The end result is this oppressive, 24/7 Mask-On atmosphere.

Not really anything more to add to any of the discourse in this thread. It's pretty much all been said. But the quote above probably hit home to me as one of, if not the most, key things that cuts right to the heart of the issue for me.

When I give advice to someone who is visibly and noticeably playing poorly, do I do it in a careful manner? Yes, absolutely. But it's not some kind of "sterile PR speak," and it's not something I have to painfully craft before I "say" it. It's out of genuine interest in helping the other player and, sure, in helping myself too. It's not hard to just be polite and respectful, especially given how rarely the occurrence of truly "poor" players is. Or at least it shouldn't be difficult. If you really feel you are walking on eggshells every time you think of giving advice and feel you have to craft some sort of longwinded PR statement such as to not offend them, then chances are you're not being as helpful as you think you are. And maybe you need to examine what about the messaging you're giving out is coming off as offensive enough to merit a report that a GM wouldn't just be blowing off (assuming one gets filed in the first place).

[LaughingBanana]

The end result is this oppressive, 24/7 Mask-On atmosphere.

I just found it quite funny that some would actually considering such an Orwellian 1984-ish interpretation about a video game like this, especially for something like FFXIV where the general atmosphere I tend to find to be quite genial.

Also, just a note: most people who are complaining about "drama" are the ones usually creating those "drama" in the first place. Stop being so overdramatic all the time.

The thought of someone while playing FFXIV is quivering in fear trying to sterilize a message offering advice to another player before they hit send because they fear the overlords are watching and couldn't wait to target them with banhammer is just actually hilarious to me. It's not hard to just be polite while you're offering advice, and I am 100% sure that even if you are reported by some arse when you offer advice nothing would come out off it if your message is respectful. And almost everyone I met in cases where I gave advice when they did something wrong, they received it well, heck most of the times I got comms from suggesting those advices, and this the experience I had after playing probably thousands of DF related content. If you are not an arse yourself or acting like one when you give pointers to others, you have absolutely nothing to fear.

[Wasselin]

Most people do not like unsolicited advice for two reasons. One because there is almost always inherent criticism in the advice. Even if you don't say, "you're doing something wrong," by saying that they should change their behavior you are telling them that there is something wrong with what they are doing. Two, it often makes the advice-giver sound like they know better. If you haven't done anything to prove or show that you have knowledge of the subject, it can make people feel like some stranger, who they don't know, is telling them what to do. Why should they listen if they don't know if the person has any basis for saying what they say?

That's why it's important to always lead with overwhelming kindness when giving advice and be as non-confrontational as possible if you want others to take your advice. I think, if you just have to give advice because you really think it will help someone else or it will help you complete the run, to first ask people if they want advice. If they don't want your advice, then it's pointless to try to give it anyway because it won't be well received. If you want to force your advice on other people, even if it's clearly not welcome, you should maybe think about why you are trying to give advice in the first place.

[Nayout]

Define growing "properly" first.

I actually disagree with the easy mode for quests, but people told me it's irrelevant because they're solo, so whatever.

But anyway, I don't think there is any "big brother death grip" thing going on, just some rules that are actually enforced. People still has the freedom of determining whom they want to play with in this game.

But how is it going to be irrelevant if by doing this you damage the fucking learning curve of the game?

Things like the Echo and Easy mode totally damage this curve and that affects EVERYONE because this is an MMORPG. If a person cannot pass the combat against Zenos in Stormblood, he should analyze what he is doing, how to move from aoes and see what he is doing wrong, in the same way as in FFX if he cannot pass the combat against Seymour, he analyzes I'm doing wrong and I try again until I learn.

But these modes simply make people turn off their brains, fail at everything, and can continue to progress in the game.

[Vahlnir]

But how is it going to be irrelevant if by doing this you damage the fucking learning curve of the game?

Things like the Echo and Easy mode totally damage this curve and that affects EVERYONE because this is an MMORPG. If a person cannot pass the combat against Zenos in Stormblood, he should analyze what he is doing, how to move from aoes and see what he is doing wrong, in the same way as in FFX if he cannot pass the combat against Seymour, he analyzes I'm doing wrong and I try again until I learn.

But these modes simply make people turn off their brains, fail at everything, and can continue to progress in the game.

Those who want to learn will learn, and those who believe that ignorance is bliss will continue about their business regardless of what anyone says. I don't think these "easy mode" story scenarios are as detrimental as some may think. People have been able to level up fast for some time, even without buying boosts. This isn't anything new. With as casual of a game as this is, I would expect a fair number of players to be a bit below average but still able to get things done...which they do most of the time. It's just not always pretty. What it comes down to is personal expectations. Some have theirs set way too high. FF XIV is the wrong game for that, in my opinion. Some MMOs seem to go through a constant identity crisis, but the dev team knows exactly what FF XIV is and they design the game largely around a more relaxed and casual player base. I respect that.