Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[LianaThorne]

Here's how I look at it: I don't think lazy play should be considered the norm but at the same time, it kind of should be recognized that there are many different types of people that play MMOs. Some people play it strictly as a way to have fun and they personally don't care about their DPS and others who tryhard in every dungeon and care about their output. Then there's also people in the middle who like to know what they're doing but aren't going to go full tryhard either. That's just how it is in any game community where there is content to cater to every playstyle: from end-game raiding to gardening and decorating.

I think that those who are super particular about the environment they want to play in should keep in mind that unless YOU personally create the environment that you want (whether by PFs, going with people you know or kicking mid-dungeon...which I don't agree with unless the person is griefing because new people exist and need to experience the content to progress) that you will ultimately deal with people of all playstyles in DF. Square also isn't going to lock out new players from old because:

1. How will they even learn or find motivation to improve if they can't complete content with only being matched with inexperienced players?

2. It's a toxic mentality.

I understand that it would be convenient to have every DF go super smoothly with only the best of the best in your party, but this game isn't meant for only the best of the best and definitely doesn't cater to only the best of the best. I think those who feel entitled to elite gameplay due to experience or skill should keep that in mind.

[MagiusNecros]

The Doozer classic.

They are quite the Doozer aren't they.

As for NN...I don't use it and my experience with running DF and having mentors in the group is hit or miss. Either they are very helpful or they are a narcissist with a Crown.

And for poor players as long as you reasonably clear normal content in reasonable amounts of time I see no reason to measure magic wands on how much DPS they do.

Trials 10 minutes, dungeons 15 minutes is rather fair.

Only time you should comment is if you have DPS that stands in fire, healers that can't heal, or Tanks that are being downright stupid by kiting mobs, not using CDs, not using Tank stance, keeping Healer outside of LoS.

Regardless if they hate you or not for calling them out on poor play they usually listen to what you have to say and start playing better.

At worst you kick them(if it's reasonable) or they ragequit and leave.

But 90% of the time any content I've done runs smoothly and the only talking involved is "Hello team" and "thx for party".

[linayar]

It depends on the person, sure the game may not reward you but it is a team game people should respect the time of others in the group by having a basic understand how to play their role. I have been in group where as a tank I have d/out damaged a SAM. Sure we cleared the content but objectively they failed their role as a damage dealer. Just like if a tank cannot hold aggro or a healer that does heal objectively fails at their role.

Or are we going to say that irrelevant cause they content was cleared? Also I have cleared content with tanks that refuse to hold aggro is it really safe to say they were competent players / did not under perform.

When a tank loses aggro, the party has to try to adapt and there is a possibility of a wipe, and if you wipe, then you cannot accomplish the task of completing the content, so you are underperforming in that case.

When a damage dealer outputs lower dps than a tank/healer, the fight just takes longer unless there is a DPS check. If there is a DPS check, then they are underperforming if the party hits enrage. Otherwise, if there is no dps check, it is irrelevant. It becomes the party's decision of how to go about it, not the game's.

[Awha]

When a tank loses aggro, the party has to try to adapt and there is a possibility of a wipe, and if you wipe, then you cannot accomplish the task of completing the content, so you are underperforming in that case.

When a damage dealer outputs lower dps than a tank/healer, the fight just takes longer unless there is a DPS check. If there is a DPS check, then they are underperforming if the party hits enrage. Otherwise, if there is no dps check, it is irrelevant. It becomes the party's decision of how to go about it, not the game's.

See but at the core the person in question failed their role. Yet in the game tanks and healers are allowed to be viewed and can be easily called out for not performing because they have a fair easier metric to go by. Though what confuses me is if we equalize each role to their core function on the basic level. Tank holds aggro, healer heals, and dps do dps. In the end why is it fair to say a tank is underperforming because they cannot hold aggro even though the content can be cleared without a tank holding aggro because what it seems like the possibility of a wipe is enough reason to say a tank is under performing, yet for dps it is not? If we look at each in a vacuum and ignore the bias of the game and the prevalence of damage between the roles then a dps doing less damage then a tank or healer has failed to meet the bare minimum function of their role. In a equialized situation.

Sure it does not play out that way, but that is part of the culture of enabling. A tank a healer have clear markers that can be used to judge performance. While a dps can get by because others can simply adjust to make up for the damage loss.

Also I get the group has control but that is a moot point cause we are talking about a community aspect, sure we have solutions in place already but having a solution does not negate the nonsensical reason as to why tank and healers can easily be called out for failing their role even if content can be cleared without said roles yet dps get a pass.

Let us be real even if someone has an excuse that prevents them from doing more damage then a tank or healer then they should also use the PF to get a group. It works both ways.

[AngelCheese77]

Why should the fun of others come at my expense? What happens when there is no one left to carry? What if nobody does their job quest? This is what you people defend.

This is why I fully get behind making class quests mandatory and not a side thing you can do when you remember to when level 80.

[linayar]

See but at the core the person in question failed their role.

The role of a DPS is to deal damage. Nothing about it says it has to be better than other role.

Yet in the game tanks and healers are allowed to be viewed and can be easily called out for not performing because they have a fair easier metric to go by.

That's just the disparity between the roles. It's part of the reasons why DPS is more popular even though some might say being a tank is easier in certain scenarios with having less mechanic to do.

Though what confuses me is if we equalize each role to their core function on the basic level. Tank holds aggro, healer heals, and dps do dps. In the end why is it fair to say a tank is underperforming because they cannot hold aggro even though the content can be cleared without a tank holding aggro because what it seems like the possibility of a wipe is enough reason to say a tank is under performing, yet for dps it is not? If we look at each in a vacuum and ignore the bias of the game and the prevalence of damage between the roles then a dps doing less damage then a tank or healer has failed to meet the bare minimum function of their role. In a equialized situation.

Sure it does not play out that way, but that is part of the culture of enabling. A tank a healer have clear markers that can be used to judge performance. While a dps can get by because others can simply adjust to make up for the damage loss.

The reason why is because there is a binary effect. A tank either keeps aggro or not. A tank either mitigates or not. Just look at mechanics that force a tank to use LB3. They have to make it binary so that if a tank doesn't use the LB3, the party can wipe. Otherwise, it's irrelevant whether a tank uses LB3 unless for "cheesing" purpose, and might as well have DPS do it.

Same thing with healer. Its role is to heal, but in effect, it doesn't matter how much (or how little) you heal as long as your party's HP is above 0 unless there is some healer check. In fact, there is no benefit to over-healing that I know of, but healer mains can correct me on this. It only has negative effect due to limited MP. I saw a thread recently about removing MP. If they ever remove MP for healers....

Meanwhile, a DPS who outputs less dps than healer/tank is still doing damage, still outputting dps, and as long as there is no dps check, it's irrelevant. And to be honest, even with a dps check, the important thing is the party's total dps, not any individual player's.

So, yes, there is a disparity between the roles, and each role has its own quirks.

[Awha]

The role of a DPS is to deal damage. Nothing about it says it has to be better than other role.

That's just the disparity between the roles. It's part of the reasons why DPS is more popular even though some might say being a tank is easier in certain scenarios with having less mechanic to do.

The reason why is because there is a binary effect. A tank either keeps aggro or not. A tank either mitigates or not. Just look at mechanics that force a tank to use LB3. They have to make it binary so that if a tank doesn't use the LB3, the party can wipe. Otherwise, it's irrelevant whether a tank uses LB3 unless for "cheesing" purpose, and might as well have DPS do it.

Same thing with healer. Its role is to heal, but in effect, it doesn't matter how much (or how little) you heal as long as your party's HP is above 0 unless there is some healer check. In fact, there is no benefit to over-healing that I know of, but healer mains can correct me on this. It only has negative effect due to limited MP. I saw a thread recently about removing MP. If they ever remove MP for healers....

Meanwhile, a DPS who outputs less dps than healer/tank is still doing damage, still outputting dps, and as long as there is no dps check, it's irrelevant. And to be honest, even with a dps check, the important thing is the party's total dps, not any individual player's.

So, yes, there is a disparity between the roles, and each role has its own quirks.

Sure it exists but the point remains that if a dps does less damage then a tank what reason do we have outside of the game forcing amount of tank healer or dps.

That is the point or discussion here sure that is the desired setup for the game but it makes no sense to judge the performance of one role off the potential for a wipe and not hold the same standard for another. I have healed dps through content when our tank was unable to hold aggro no wipe happened so since a wipe did not happen and the content was cleared it is safe to say the tank performed well enough?

That is the point a pass should not exist for dps because how much they do is irrelevant unless it leads to a wipe.

We are splitting hairs at the point when we say a dps role is to do damage not more damage then another role. Since the same could be said for roles. A tanks role is to hold aggro and tank hits just may not be as well as another role. It does not fly when we look at it on the other foot. The same core standards should be for each role. A dps that offers nothing but damage that cannot out damage a healer or tank objectively is a failure of a dps. Just like a tank that cannot hold aggro is a failure of a tank and a healer that does not heal is a failure of a healer.

DPS do not deserve a special standard due to role disparity. Granted if we had dps meters and could call people out that disparity may be less prevalent.

It is a team game, sure but a team is comprised of individuals. Generally this community has this thing about personal accountability that defies all logic.

I have had encounters with people where people in NN defended an ice mage cause they were doing damage but blasted a tank because they did not use their AoE and just used their single target. If tab target and only 4 or 5 mobs you can maintain aggro sure you might lose aggro but the core concept is they are roughly holding aggro while an ice mage is roughly doing damage.

Yet we blast one and defend the other.

[linayar]

it makes no sense to judge the performance of one role off the potential for a wipe and not hold the same standard for another.

Wait, I think you're confused. I am holding the same standard for both. The thing is, without a DPS check, the potential for a wipe for a DPS putting out lower dps than healer/tank is almost zero. That's why it's irrelevant in Normal contents.

A dps putting out weak damage is not as threatening to the party as a tank that doesn't use AOE, causing them to lose aggro that then attack the other party members and killing them off, potentially causing the party to wipe.

[Awha]

Wait, I think you're confused. I am holding the same standard for both. The thing is, without a DPS check, the potential for a wipe for a DPS putting out lower dps than healer/tank is almost zero. That's why it's irrelevant in Normal contents.

A dps putting out weak damage is not as threatening to the party as a tank that doesn't use AOE, causing them to lose aggro that then attack the other party members and killing them off, potentially causing the party to wipe.

In the end the potential still exists without a hard dps check. The healer could just run out of mp and tank runs out of coold0wns cause the fight takes too long. The potential for a wipe still exists no matter how unlikely.

Sure it is a rare case but the potential still exists or are we going to play the healer and tank for that wipe cause they failed to do their role. If we break it down the potential for a wipe is enough reason to view someone as underperforming even if the content was cleared. We never established the likely hood of a wipe is relevant. Though if we go based off that I have healed ping pong aggro as the group tanked with the help of a great co healer through 8 man content while the tanks never had tank stance on. Wipe would really only have happen if we the healers dropped the ball in that situation.

In the end I get what you are saying and as a community we cannot do much about it expect make our own groups and kick people. Though the thing is does not mean we have to sit back and agree that this community does not enable poor play because by in large playing well is irrelevant in most content in this game.

I do also operate on a kick what I do not like or agree with mindset if the kick does not pass I leave.

[Seera1024]

Wait, I think you're confused. I am holding the same standard for both. The thing is, without a DPS check, the potential for a wipe for a DPS putting out lower dps than healer/tank is almost zero. That's why it's irrelevant in Normal contents.

A dps putting out weak damage is not as threatening to the party as a tank that doesn't use AOE, causing them to lose aggro that then attack the other party members and killing them off, potentially causing the party to wipe.

I'd say a DPS consistently not out DPS'ing a tank or healer in normal content is underperforming.

They may not be underperforming to the point that they are causing wipes, but they are significantly slowing down progress if that's the case.

A DPS not performing well is just as dangerous. Because lower DPS means a longer fight. A longer fight increases the chances of players making a mistake with mechanics or skill usage that could result in a wipe.

A D grade while passing is under performing. A person just caring to graduate high school may not have motivation to improve their performance, but they are still under performing.

Duty finder mixes players of all skill levels and game goals together. As long as the content's being completed, I personally wouldn't agree with a kick, especially if there hasn't been any attempt to nicely ask the player to improve. Players who care about the skill levels and game goals should use party finder to form a group.