Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[linayar]

The thing is as stated the potential still exists. Though the quantifying remake is person dependent. Personally wiping in normal content is already unlikely even with low dps or underperforming tank / healers.

Though for normal content a tank or healer not performing their role it is still possible for someone else to pick up the slack to make up for the difference. Which is the same principle of dps doing lower damage the group is able to make up the difference so it does not matter if the content gets cleared in regards of the dps because all that matters for the most part from what I understand is the group performance. Though the same Principle still stands for the other roles, and that is my point. If we break down the standard to a core principle of completion through group effort the same standard should apply across the board. Though for the most part people are far more understanding of dps underperforming over tanks and healers. Which is understandable but at the core kind of unfair. I prefer to apply an equal standard across the board when it comes to performance.

Healers losing MP could have various factors contributing to it, like tank overpulling or healers not using their resource wisely, not just dps being low, and it takes the entire party having low dps, including the other dps as well.

So, no, the standard is still the same. But low dps doesn't affect the party like tanks losing aggro or healers not healing. The latter two has immediate effect more than simply fight taking longer or healer losing MP.

And here is the other thing, if the dps gets so low that the party cannot get through a mob, then of course that's a problem, but considering healers and tanks have good dps, dps being lower than them doesn't necessarily mean anything in normal content.

[Awha]

snip

Those factors are player dependent, and are often products of poor play. Sure other factors can lead to such outcomes, just like in the case of a dps doing lower damage.

Though personally those factors are irrelevant to me, I really do not care why someone is under performing I just care about the numbers.

Your stance would require me to care about such things. This is my my view for underperforming is fairly straight forward and black and white and I get for many that is weird and unnecessary.

I just do not get why people are willing to defend certain aspects that are a product of poor play yet blast others. Largely based off the role in question. Cannot tell you how many times I have seen people yell at a tank for not having tank stance on yet say nothing when the dps does not AoE. From a game play perspective both are moot in large portions of this games content. I have cleared content with 4 dps. Most content does not require fully functional roles yet for the most part they use the same line of thinking one has a higher risk of wipe which makes it an unnecessary risk so to speak.

When you bring up the risk of a wipe is still the same in the other cases of under performing once again told the same thing it is not very likely so it is moot.

In the end people are right the group can largely make up for many shortcomings for lower dps and I also argue the same could be said for healers and tanks, but I will concede that it is fair easier to make up poor damage then poor heals or tanks.

Though personally the degree of wipe potential or how much easier one is over the other is not grounds to give one role preferencenal standards so to speak and not the others.

So personally this is why I hold each to the same standard. Want to underperform by my standards cool do you, but if it happens to be in my group I will vote to remove them from the group. I see no difference between a non aoeing dps and a healer that just stands around between heals. To me they are in the same boat as the tank that refuses to put on tank stance or the afk let eos heal sch.

[linayar]

I just do not get why people are willing to defend certain aspects that are a product of poor play yet blast others.

Ok, let's get to the point:

If a tank doesn't keep aggro, the enemy is likely to attack others.
If a healer doesn't keep tank or others alive, they are likely to die. Especially cleansing doom mechanic.
If a dps doesn't output dps, they are afk and anyone who is afk without telling others why should be kicked.

If a dps doesn't output higher dps than healer/tank, fight will take longer, but that's it, healers are not likely to lose mp unless it's really low dps along with other factors. You say you don't care about stuff, I don't care about this last part. Oh no, it takes more GCDs to kill. Whatever, unless it's borderline afk, meaning they stop casting every other gcd or something.

[Awha]

Ok, let's get to the point:

If a tank doesn't keep aggro, the enemy is likely to attack others.
If a healer doesn't keep tank or others alive, they are likely to die. Especially cleansing doom mechanic.
If a dps doesn't output dps, they are afk and anyone who is afk without telling others why should be kicked.

If a dps doesn't output higher dps than healer/tank, fight will take longer, but that's it, healers are not likely to lose mp unless it's really low dps along with other factors. You say you don't care about stuff, I don't care about this last part. Oh no, it takes more GCDs to kill. Whatever, unless it's borderline afk, meaning they stop casting every other gcd or something.

Here is the thing I do not recall ever saying you should care about those things. This has just been a discussion over how people define underperforming. Sure you may not be bothered by x others are. So what is the big deal?

That is the thing people say we should not care about x we should let it slide or use the PF. Though if you dare say yeah I care about x and I will kick people for doing x you are seen as some intolerant asshole by others. When in reality if you break down x to the core they functionally are a product of the same thing just not being able to play their role.

Sure some are more tolerant to certain degrees of poor play others may not so what is largely the big deal in having a different view in regards to what they view as underperforming. For some the consequences are irrelevant I do not harp on such things because I am afraid of a wipe or want to go fast all the time. If speed was my core concern I would just suck it up since it is quicker to play another with someone then wait 5 min into the dungeon to remove someone. Wiping in this game in most content is the futherest thing from my mind.

In the end this is why I say people should just be liberal with the vote kick feature, and if it does not pass then leave. Queue with friends or use PF. I do not think SE can or will do anything regarding this since we have a means to remove people from parties and queue with people who to wish to play with.

Though I fo strongly disagree that DF means we should just accept what we get, and I do not think people should take getting removed from group personally or see it as a form of griefing or harassment unless they can prove such things.

Often it is just a product of not meshing with the group.

One thing I will say to those that say people like myself should queue with friends and stuff I agree and for the most part I do. Though I will say from the free style sam to the afk eos healer sch the same could be said for them.

In the end if you want to play a certain way free from judgement queue with friends. DF is a mixed bag though if you do use DF and run into someone that is doing something that is impacting your experience do not just sit and take it or just leave. Try the vote see what happens often times you may be shocked how some may be thinking or feel the same way but simply do not want to pull the trigger so to speak. What is the worse the happens it does not pass, at that point take your leave.

As mentioned you may not see the difference and that is fine in eyes a dps doing less damage then a tank or healer is in the same boat as a healer that refuses to cleanse doom or a tank not using cooldowns. They all suck at their role and I rather not deal with it and thay is why use the tools in the game to avoid such people.

Cause if you break it down both outcomes are products of not knowing how to play their role. The why matters very little to me personally. Though if people do not think like that cool. I may not get it and I will ask questions to try and get it. Those please understand me asking questions to try and get it has little to do with trying to change your mind and more so with trying to understand the reasoning behind it.

[linayar]

Here is the thing I do not recall ever saying you should care about those things. This has just been a discussion over how people define underperforming. Sure you may not be bothered by x others are. So what is the big deal?

What do you mean what's the big deal? I'm just answering the confusion you stated in your post.

The point remains, if "underperforming" is defined subjectively, then it's irrelevant. If it is defined objectively, then it must be relevant to the objective of the content.

And no matter how much you want to talk about potentiality, tank losing aggro and healer not healing has a bigger potential for not completing the objective than simply dps not putting as much damage as tank/healer.

[Awha]

What do you mean what's the big deal? I'm just answering the confusion you stated in your post.

The point remains, if "underperforming" is defined subjectively, then it's irrelevant. If it is defined objectively, then it must be relevant to the objective of the content.

And no matter how much you want to talk about potentiality, tank losing aggro and healer not healing has a bigger potential for not completing the objective than simply dps not putting as much damage as tank/healer.

Thing is it is only irrelevant into relation to SE doing anything about. They will not, nor do I recall saying that performance is an objective metric if I did sorry, I to recall saying the that the outcome of a vote in a party is an objective metric but I do not recall saying that regarding performance. I have always been in the camp that standards are subjective and that is what creates this issue in the first place cause we all have different views on the matter.

Sure it may hold more potential but as mentioned but the degree of potential trouble does not matter to me I am a action driven person. I operate on a very binary system. If one action can cause a similar outcome no matter how likely or unlikely I will not do said action. Unless I am willing to live with the consequences. IRL it has different implications though in the game as mentioned and I agree one carries higher risk of wipe but to me the risk factor does not devalue the action itself. I judge them on the action and not the outcome.

[linayar]

I have always been in the camp that standards are subjective and that is what creates this issue in the first place cause we all have different views on the matter.

I actually think it's the opposite. If there is no objective standard, then there is no issue. If issues arise, it's because people think there is an objective standard, and thus want to say that others are doing it wrong. If you like pineapples on your pizza, I would disagree, but there is no issue because it's subjective.

I operate on a very binary system.

I understand and I'm not trying to change you, but I do think that causes more issue than anything else. I think, for many aspects of life, there are degrees to be considered. Some are more important than others.