"Play XIV if(cont)" and"you have a responsibility to" are not statements that coexist

[Awha]

Based on this, I'd say it's not higher threshold, but perhaps different understanding, of what is toxic. I would say someone who is doing their part through the mechanic is not being carried at all, so it's not toxic if they think that's enough to try to join a group.

At the end of the day, though, a PF leader has the right choose whom to keep and whom to kick from their party, while a DF party has a vote to kick function as well.

For the most, I do agree with SE's stance on this, though I can also sympathize with the idea that more information can be useful for improving, especially for doing harder contents.

Sure we can remove the player but I do think this general idea that the if a person does the mechanics and does not die while doing less damage as a healer or tank as an example is inexcusable personally. Problem with the kick function people will not wipe the group the remove the player so in essence they are getting carried.

While I am the type or player to bring it up end of the day for some it is useless cause the only metric some follow is we cleared so we all did good. Sure a parse has a plethora of useful data, though the overall damage number is telling in the moment depending on the context of course. I personally just cannot fathom a universe where a healer or tank should be doing more damage then say a BLM or SAM in normal content when it comes to single target. Sure their damage may not be needed but can we honestly say in good faith they did fine cause we cleared?

This is why I feel SE mindset is dated. They are scared how the data will be used which is understandable but barring the data altogether is overkill. It is akin to the feast chat change, sure some chat was toxic but not all. Instead of just allowing people to report the "toxic" behavior. Though I do not even think feast chat was toxic calling someone bad or telling them to no queue again is not inherently toxic imo. Rude to a degree us but as a player in many games i rarely see someone call someone out without reason. It is not up to the community to inform them how to be better. That is on the player a one quick google search is sometimes enough.

To me the real only toxic behavior is results is doxing someone mocking them on steam unless they ask for it by being a royal dbag, making fun of them if they have a limitation be it physical or mental. Generally those are the extremes I consider as toxic calling someone bad or telling them never to queue again stuff like that is not toxic imo rude yes. For me toxic has to go above and beyond simply being rude. Thus my stance how someone going into a group doing tyr bare minimum required of them necessary to clear the content goes above a beyond being rude imo.

[linayar]

In the end, Data isn't toxic, how you present it is

And that is why we have the situation we have. The data is still there for those who want it, but there is regulation on how you present it against another player.

Sure we can remove the player but I do think this general idea that the if a person does the mechanics and does not die while doing less damage as a healer or tank as an example is inexcusable personally. Problem with the kick function people will not wipe the group the remove the player so in essence they are getting carried.

I think most people would set that minimum standard at clearing the content. So what's "personally inexcusable" for some might not be the basis that SE would want to use if it goes beyond what would be acceptable.

While I am the type or player to bring it up end of the day for some it is useless cause the only metric some follow is we cleared so we all did good. Sure a parse has a plethora of useful data, though the overall damage number is telling in the moment depending on the context of course. I personally just cannot fathom a universe where a healer or tank should be doing more damage then say a BLM or SAM in normal content when it comes to single target. Sure their damage may not be needed but can we honestly say in good faith they did fine cause we cleared?

I think if a damage dealer can output less damage than a healer and a tank and clear the content, then the problem lies with the content and combat system. But if that is the reality, then, in good faith, I would indeed say that they did fine, as in satisfactory.

This is why I feel SE mindset is dated. They are scared how the data will be used which is understandable but barring the data altogether is overkill. It is akin to the feast chat change, sure some chat was toxic but not all. Instead of just allowing people to report the "toxic" behavior. Though I do not even think feast chat was toxic calling someone bad or telling them to no queue again is not inherently toxic imo. Rude to a degree us but as a player in many games i rarely see someone call someone out without reason. It is not up to the community to inform them how to be better. That is on the player a one quick google search is sometimes enough.

To me the real only toxic behavior is results is doxing someone mocking them on steam unless they ask for it by being a royal dbag, making fun of them if they have a limitation be it physical or mental. Generally those are the extremes I consider as toxic calling someone bad or telling them never to queue again stuff like that is not toxic imo rude yes. For me toxic has to go above and beyond simply being rude. Thus my stance how someone going into a group doing tyr bare minimum required of them necessary to clear the content goes above a beyond being rude imo.

I would say being rude and being toxic are synonymous. You're arguing levels of extremity, but that's all they are, differences of degrees.

Or, put it another way, if you don't deal with people's rude behavior, they will turn toxic sooner or later.

[Awha]

And that is why we have the situation we have. The data is still there for those who want it, but there is regulation on how you present it against another player.

I think most people would set that minimum standard at clearing the content. So what's "personally inexcusable" for some might not be the basis that SE would want to use if it goes beyond what would be acceptable.

I think if a damage dealer can output less damage than a healer and a tank and clear the content, then the problem lies with the content and combat system. But if that is the reality, then, in good faith, I would indeed say that they did fine, as in satisfactory.

I would say being rude and being toxic are synonymous. You're arguing levels of extremity, but that's all they are, differences of degrees.

Or, put it another way, if you don't deal with people's rude behavior, they will turn toxic sooner or later.

That is the thing I think most people have the standard due to the dated mindset SE has towards parsing. If that is your metric cool I strongly disagree that clearing the content should be the defining metric. Personally the idea of getting carried does rub me the wrong way. Also it has nothing to be with extremes for me being rude is not toxic I know for others it is though in my eyes they are not synonymous to being toxic.

Toxic generally in my view has been watered down as time went on. It appears now for some the mere perception of rudeness is a enough to be seen as toxic. End of the day a factual statement should not be seen as toxic sure the tone itself could be seen as rude but that does not negate what was said or better yet should not negate what was said. In this game if you point out to someone that they have room to improve or mention how low their damage is compared to other players with similar gear and job especially after a clear outside of a static many will say it does not matter cause the content was cleared. Even on the forums like in that talea of the duty finder or in NN you will see people defend poor play by coming up with a bunch of reasons as to why someone may be playing poorly.

This is one aspect I enjoy in other games the reason behind why someone is playing poorly is irrelevant to many, fact remains they were playing like dog shit and success probably would have been still been possible if the person was dead on the floor. Though I agree it is a problem with fight design and part of the reason I rarely pug. I get I have that competitive nature that does not mesh well with the causal player base and I get SE designed normal and
EX to a degree in terms of E
encounters to be cleared by the largest number of possible players.

I do wish they made the game harder across the board I would kill for mythic + style content in FFXIV.

Though overall a rude person is not necessarily a toxic person or will be a toxic person. Telling someone to never queue for content again because they were a legit waste of space in my eyes is the better option instead of saying nothing and letting that person go on to think they did a good job. That is how I got into hardcore raiding back in WoW. I was a player that operated on the mindset I cleared the content so I am good. Until I got called out for being a dog shit player and was told to kill myself or as they put it go die in a cancer fire. The persons comments did hurt but it also got me thinking why did they say such things what could I have done to cause someone to get that upset. So I asked around looked up guides and damn I was playing my class all wrong. This was an eye opener, I went all that time thinking I was playing fine cause I cleared content.

To me being blunt like that is one of the nicer actions a gamer could do. Cause they did not have to say anything and if they had who knows how long I would have kept going on like that being carried by groups wasting the time of others because of my own ignorance.

Guess in the end I think people just need to get some thicker skin if they think being rude is toxic or a degree of toxic.

[linayar]

That is the thing I think most people have the standard due to the dated mindset SE has towards parsing. If that is your metric cool I strongly disagree that clearing the content should be the defining metric. Personally the idea of getting carried does rub me the wrong way. Also it has nothing to be with extremes for me being rude is not toxic I know for others it is though in my eyes they are not synonymous to be toxic

You keep using that word, dated, but I don't think you've established why SE's mindset is dated. It may be too extreme to your liking, but that alone doesn't make it dated, especially when there is also support for such a mindset in the community.

But in a way, you're right that the game does (and I would say should) influence the standard by which the players judge others. If a game does not provide an official damage parsing, then the players should not be using that as a metric unless the content itself enforces it, such as via enrage mechanic.

That said, the game allows for creating your own party, and there is a certain freedom there where you can set your own standard to a degree that may go beyond the game's own. But if a party doesn't care, then it is what it is.

[linayar]

Toxic generally in my view has been watered down as time went on. It appears now for some the mere perception of rudeness is a enough to be seen as toxic.

...

Though overall a rude person is not necessarily a toxic person or will be a toxic person. Telling someone to never queue for content again because they were a legit waste of space in my eyes is the better option instead of saying nothing and letting that person go on to think they did a good job. That is how I got into hardcore raiding back in WoW. I was a player that operated on the mindset I cleared the content so I am good. Until I got called out for being a dog shit player and was told to kill myself or as they put it go die in a cancer fire. The persons comments did hurt but it also got me thinking why did they say such things what could I have done to cause someone to get that upset. So I asked around looked up guides and damn I was playing my class all wrong. This was an eye opener, I went all that time thinking I was playing fine cause I cleared content.

To me being blunt like that is one of the nicer actions a gamer could do. Cause they did not have to say anything and if they had who knows how long I would have kept going on like that being carried by groups wasting the time of others because of my own ignorance.

Guess in the end I think people just need to get some thicker skin if they think being rude is toxic or a degree of toxic.

Being toxic is generally associated with being harmful, and being rude is generally considered socially harmful. Being around a rude person is not a pleasant experience for most people. That environment becomes toxic if left unchecked.

End of the day a factual statement should not be seen as toxic sure the tone itself could be seen as rude but that does not negate what was said or better yet should not negate what was said.

It's not about negating any factual statement. It is about factual statement not negating toxic behavior/comment.

In this game if you point out to someone that they have room to improve or mention how low their damage is compared to other players with similar gear and job especially after a clear outside of a static many will say it does not matter cause the content was cleared. Even on the forums like in that talea of the duty finder or in NN you will see people defend poor play by coming up with a bunch of reasons as to why someone may be playing poorly.

In this case, both are factual statements. Fact: people have room to improve. Also fact: they can still clear content without improving.

This is one aspect I enjoy in other games the reason behind why someone is playing poorly is irrelevant to many, fact remains they were playing like dog shit and success probably would have been still been possible if the person was dead on the floor. Though I agree it is a problem with fight design and part of the reason I rarely pug. I get I have that competitive nature that does not mesh well with the causal player base and I get SE designed normal and
EX to a degree in terms of E
encounters to be cleared by the largest number of possible players.

I do wish they made the game harder across the board I would kill for mythic + style content in FFXIV.

I can understand if you're frustrated about this, but this game is what it is. In the extreme case, even the contents that should've encouraged improvement have been dealt with by groups who sell clears for those who really want it without improving on their play.

[strawberrycake]

And that is why we have the situation we have. The data is still there for those who want it, but there is regulation on how you present it against another player.

In the end, Data isn't toxic, how you present it is, and people are flawed, don't do away with data because people can be toxic, they'll find new ways to be toxic, instead encourage proper interactions and being considerate. Is what I said there, and the regulation of it solves nothing, the combat devs are missing out on good data to make the game better. The Players who actively use this data where it matters show massive improvement in said content once they know to use said data.

The idea of parsing and collecting data for improvement being bad is a lie spread by people scared of having to do better in alot of content they wanna do, but never wanna put the effort into. And the sad part is that SE, and by Proxy Yoshi-P wants to avoid it, when this data can make feed back so much clearer for them when it comes to making content. So instead of having to have someone translate every little thing, put raw data into a readable format, you can read through already formatted data provided by ACT and by proxy FFLogs, you can see where the players struggle, what fights were done in certain ways, and how to can avoid content being seen as braindead or boring. And in doing that the Devs no longer have to constrain their own creative impulses or freedoms worrying about those are just too ignorant to approach the content.

My general thought process is, if the art team wants you to experience a whole zone they worked so hard on, before you can fly in it, you have to get aether currents. If the Music team wants you to experience the sound effects they've worked so hard on they make sure the game makes you focus on that. SO why should the Battle Content Devs be restricted because some people can't be bothered to try a bit harder, to think a bit more. In my opinion its disrespectful to them to have to stifle themselves like this to make content "approachable".

Data should never be constrained, it should be free to use, and SE and Yoshi-P should encourage players to considerate of others with said data. And change the ToS for those who aren't and make it a very swift perma ban. That way the data can be used, and people will help, or stay quiet if they dont want to help and simply remove those players from their group.

[linayar]

So how are we to know parsing would make it worse? We may have an idea based around other games but this game is still considered one of the nicer communities despite the the flaws in the community would parsing in itself tilt the scales so far that it afters the community to such an extent? We really cannot say.

Well, if we really cannot say, then I don't see SE having any reason to risk what they have now by changing it.

My general thought process is, if the art team wants you to experience a whole zone they worked so hard on, before you can fly in it, you have to get aether currents. If the Music team wants you to experience the sound effects they've worked so hard on they make sure the game makes you focus on that. SO why should the Battle Content Devs be restricted because some people can't be bothered to try a bit harder, to think a bit more. In my opinion its disrespectful to them to have to stifle themselves like this to make content "approachable".

Art and music doesn't directly affect social interaction like battle content.

Data should never be constrained, it should be free to use, and SE and Yoshi-P should encourage players to considerate of others with said data. And change the ToS for those who aren't and make it a very swift perma ban. That way the data can be used, and people will help, or stay quiet if they dont want to help and simply remove those players from their group.

People can help or stay quiet right now. Data constraint isn't the issue when it comes to people helping other people in the game.

[Awha]

Well, if we really cannot say, then I don't see SE having any reason to risk what they have now by changing it.

Art and music doesn't directly affect social interaction like battle content.

People can help or stay quiet right now. Data constraint isn't the issue when it comes to people helping other people in the game.

Stepping outside ones comfort zone is hos we progress change. SE sticking with this notion that parsing is bad because people have had a bad experience in other games or have been person affected by parsing in the past is weird. Parsing itself has no inherent good or bad value. It depends on how it is used and that is where GM's come into play.

[linayar]

Stepping outside ones comfort zone is hos we progress change. SE sticking with this notion that parsing is bad because people have had a bad experience in other games or have been person affected by parsing in the past is weird. Parsing itself has no inherent good or bad value. It depends on how it is used and that is where GM's come into play.

SE is a business, so comfort zone has nothing to do with it. Why should they put more work for their GM to do?

[Awha]

SE is a business, so comfort zone has nothing to do with it. Why should they put more work for their GM to do?

Once again we do not know if it would require additional GM’s to police such a thing. The thing is even SE understands how useful parsing is that is why they turn a blind eye and it operates in some grey area. Personally I rather SE be open and allow for parsing across the board instead of just turning a blind eye and enforcing punishment when things get out of hand. Cause if they made parsing available to everyone they pretty much would be doing what they do now.

It really isn't as black and white as that. I completely understand why SE don't want parsers in the game because I have seen what happens when a game allows it.

Many people misuse parsers. They glance at numbers without taking things like gear or someone else making that person's job harder into consideration. They look at a tiny portion of the picture and judge someone as if that's the whole story.

Sure you can inform them that they're not looking at the big picture but this can be met with resistance. So then an argument starts when all you wanted to do was tell someone that taking a glance at a parser is often not enough to know what is truly going on.

And it really sucks when the person getting criticised also doesn't know how to look at parser data correctly and actually believe they are bad at the game when they're told they are. Some players are not experienced enough to realise how much someone else's performance can impact their own.

Also there are players who expect perfection all the time from those around them and nitpick tiny mistakes or have a hissy fit because someone in normal mode doesn't have excellent ogcd use when it's not even required in normal mode. Some people are just incapable of adjusting their expectations for the content they're in.

The problem isn't the parsers, it's the people who misuse them.

I'm not against parsers, if I was I wouldn't touch savage with a ten foot pole. I'm against their misuse but because misuse is not something that is possible to fix SE have elected to not permit them. In their eyes in game parsers are more trouble than they're worth.

That said it would be nice if there was a personal parser in the game that gave you data and a grade that takes your ilvl into account after you exit the instance so you can examine it yourself at your own pace without the risk of someone ignorant or meanspirited giving you an unnecessarily hard time over your performance while in the middle of doing it. SE are really good at making nice and clean UIs that are easy to understand so I'm sure any parser they would create would be quite user friendly. But even if that was in the game some people would hound someone after they exit the instance to call them out on something and that can lead to drama as well...so I doubt we will ever get anything like this.

Until the community can prove that parser misuse and the toxicity that can come from that would be rare SE are never going to give us a parser.

In the grand scheme I think parsing abuse is on the rare side here. Sure I grant that if it was more openly used the amount of abuse would go up though that would probably just be due to the amount of players openly using it going up. I do not think the overall case frequency would go up when adjusted for the increase of usage.

It is also a weird image from an enforcement standpoint breaking TOS bad but operate in this grey area where technically your action is against the TOS but we will let it slide unless you do something report worthy with it. Wouldn’t that be how it would be treated if it was openly used?