"Play XIV if(cont)" and"you have a responsibility to" are not statements that coexist

[Infindox]

Personally I wish FFXIV followed more of a meta slave mentality over this you do not pay my sub one. I really wish at times we could just flash numbers around cause sometimes people need a wake up call for poor play.

The problem with this view is that there are amazing players with the numbers to prove it who just aren't considered part of the meta. Should they be excluded?

Also I don't mind if a static expects certain numbers but playing with pugs you have to have a certain level of tolerance. Someone could have just returned from a break and bit off more then they could chew, or maybe they forgot the fight and need a refresher. Or maybe someone never talked to them about their job or showed them the resources. The only time you should be critical towards someone is if they show no intention to get better or don't respect the team by learning. And in both cases, don't be like those streamers who think it's funny to pull up someone else's numbers and laugh about it on stream.

[Awha]

The problem with this view is that there are amazing players with the numbers to prove it who just aren't considered part of the meta. Should they be excluded?

Also I don't mind if a static expects certain numbers but playing with pugs you have to have a certain level of tolerance. Someone could have just returned from a break and bit off more then they could chew, or maybe they forgot the fight and need a refresher. Or maybe someone never talked to them about their job or showed them the resources. The only time you should be critical towards someone is if they show no intention to get better or don't respect the team by learning. And in both cases, don't be like those streamers who think it's funny to pull up someone else's numbers and laugh about it on stream.

Meta slave mentally in my post more so about how people are expected to perform a certain way. I doubt even if FFXIV went full meta slave mentally it would be as harsh as it can get in WoW cause generally how jobs play now they more or less play within acceptable performance among one another. If jobs remained as closely balanced and job synergy is not exclusive like it was in the past.

Personally I do not think it should be up the group to spare the feelings of another player because they might be having an off night or thought they were doing fine. That is why I think posting ones numbers should be acceptable since numbers are not toxic. If you have a BLM that is being out damaged by a healer or tank then that player should be informed of such. If we could show numbers even if they have the you do not pay my sub it is much harder to defend a dps that is objectively being out damged by a tank or healer especially when they cannot hide behind you used a parser. Holding players accountable is not toxic, hell I would argue allowing us to show numbers makes it less toxic cause then at the very least we have hard numbers to go based off of. Like in cases when you have a co healed that claims to be healing you could just show them nope sorry.

[linayar]

I word it nicer in game. Though if I use a third party tool the numbers it records should not be seen as toxic. Linking the numbers then saying x you need to step it up is not toxic though in FFXIV it is seen as toxic due to SE dated view on parsing.

I think the problem is that numbers is meaningless without context, but people abuse that to this day, so I don't think SE's view is that dated when it can still apply to present day players.

For example, a "gray" parse on a certain website still means that you cleared the content. You would be right in saying that player could do better, but that's where the fact ends. The issue of whether the player should do better or needs to do better, especially if they're doing enough to clear the content without dying or causing the party to hit enrage but is getting gray parse due to gearing or conservative means of doing mechanics or some other reason, is a matter of opinion.

Now, you could say you would only use numbers on people who are dying or causing the party to wipe or hit enrage, but if the numbers are readily available, others might not stick to those cases.

And then if we go to the other extreme to follow along the OP's scenario, you can't say there won't be people who would use numbers in context that don't even need them like in normal content.

[Awha]

I think the problem is that numbers is meaningless without context, but people abuse that to this day, so I don't think SE's view is that dated when it can still apply to present day players.

For example, a "gray" parse on a certain website still means that you cleared the content. You would be right in saying that player could do better, but that's where the fact ends. The issue of whether the player should do better or needs to do better, especially if they're doing enough to clear the content without dying or causing the party to hit enrage but is getting gray parse due to gearing or conservative means of doing mechanics or some other reason, is a matter of opinion.

Now, you could say you would only use numbers on people who are dying or causing the party to wipe or hit enrage, but if the numbers are readily available, others might not stick to those cases.

And then if we go to the other extreme to follow along the OP's scenario, you can't say there won't be people who would use numbers in context that don't even need them like in normal content.

Personally even if the content is cleared if a dps is doing less damage then a tank or a healer claims they are healing those are valid cases to show them the numbers cause sure we cleared but that should not be an excuse for that level of poor play. Do not get me wrong you can clear content in this game carrying many people. I happen to do that myself with friends who have physical or mental limitations that prevent them from preforming. Though that is why we do not take pugs when we do it. Sure they could join PF and prob get through fine but still not cool imo.

Parser is not inherently toxic nor is showing numbers though clearing the content should not be an excuse to poor play. Not saying I expect perfect play but I expect players at max level when it comes to pugs or PF groups unless stated otherwise that everyone playing has a general idea how to play.

[linayar]

Personally even if the content is cleared if a dps is doing less damage then a tank or a healer claims they are healing those are valid cases to show them the numbers cause sure we cleared but that should not be an excuse for that level of poor play. Do not get me wrong you can clear content in this game carrying many people. I happen to do that myself with friends who have physical or mental limitations that prevent them from preforming. Though that is why we do not take pugs when we do it. Sure they could join PF and prob get through fine but still not cool imo.

Parser is not inherently toxic nor is showing numbers though clearing the content should not be an excuse to poor play. Not saying I expect perfect play but I expect players at max level when it comes to pugs or PF groups unless stated otherwise that everyone playing has a general idea how to play.

If you are doing the mechanics correctly without any death/hitting enrage but with relatively poor DPS compared to the majority of parsers, why is that considered poor play? PVE is supposed to be player vs environment, not a competition between you and another player.

[Penthea]

Now, you could say you would only use numbers on people who are dying or causing the party to wipe or hit enrage, but if the numbers are readily available, others might not stick to those cases.

From my time in WoW I can tell you that there are definitely players out there who do not use parsers to only point out actual problems. Some use them as an excuse to gloat or needlessly put someone down. I have legit seen someone complain at a player because they were doing slightly less dps than they should have been with the gear they had...while in a dungeon that was a faceroll -_- For some people there doesn't even need to be a problem for them to speak up, they just do so to show off their supposed superior knowledge or performance.

Parsers are excellent tools but as the saying goes "this is why we can't have nice things". Enough people do misuse them for SE to not want to make them easily available to players. I don't think we'll ever get an official parser until the community can prove to SE that parser related toxicity would be extremely rare...and well considering some of the things I have seen in these forums and when I have pugged above normal mode, this is not yet the case. I don't think it ever will be to be honest. Tryhards are gonna tryhard.

However the bar is so low in normal mode they're just not required there. You would need a spectacularly bad group to fail normal mode due to dps issues. And OP is talking about toxicity in casual content. Which I'm still confused about because I rarely see that in casual content. Still not sure if they're playing the same game as I am.

[linayar]

And OP is talking about toxicity in casual content. Which I'm still confused about because I rarely see that in casual content. Still not sure if they're playing the same game as I am.

As I've said from time to time, people's experiences vary and I have no trouble believing that they could experience it. But I will also say that those extreme experiences are likely in the minority and could be ignored without pronouncing judgment on the game or the community as a whole.

And this goes for both sides, those who met the elitist jerks and those who met the casual jerks. Jerks are jerks regardless.

[Awha]

If you are doing the mechanics correctly without any death and hitting enrage but with relatively poor DPS compared to the majority of parsers, why is that considered poor play? PVE is supposed to be player vs environment, not a competition between you and another player.

I guess for me I just do not like to carry people unless it was my intent to carry someone through the content. Also in FFXIV the barrier is so low that if a player joins a PF of strangers expecting a carry cause they can do the mechanics and this is acceptable behavior to me that is far more toxic then most the stuff I have seen in WoW. Though generally i know my threshold for what is toxic is a lot higher then most I would say.

[linayar]

I guess for me I just do not like to carry people unless it was my intent to carry someone through the content. Also in FFXIV the barrier is so low that if a player joins a PF of strangers expecting a carry cause they can do the mechanics and this is acceptable behavior to me that is far more toxic then most the stuff I have seen in WoW. Though generally i know my threshold for what is toxic is a lot higher then most I would say.

Based on this, I'd say it's not higher threshold, but perhaps different understanding, of what is toxic. I would say someone who is doing their part through the mechanic is not being carried at all, so it's not toxic if they think that's enough to try to join a group.

At the end of the day, though, a PF leader has the right choose whom to keep and whom to kick from their party, while a DF party has a vote to kick function as well.

For the most, I do agree with SE's stance on this, though I can also sympathize with the idea that more information can be useful for improving, especially for doing harder contents.

[Callinon]

If you are doing the mechanics correctly without any death and hitting enrage but with relatively poor DPS compared to the majority of parsers, why is that considered poor play? PVE is supposed to be player vs environment, not a competition between you and another player.

If you're hitting enrage then your dps are NOT doing their jobs properly.

Doing the mechanics correctly is good. That's often the hard part of learning a fight. But every party member also has the job of contributing to the boss' death. If you're hitting an enrage timer then your party is not meeting the dps check on the fight. I don't especially care whether I'm "beating" another dps on numbers or not, but if they're severely underperforming then they aren't doing their job. Keep in mind please we're talking about a party that otherwise wins the fight if not for poor dps.