"Play XIV if(cont)" and"you have a responsibility to" are not statements that coexist

[linayar]

If you're hitting enrage..

I said if you're not. Sorry if the sentence structure might've been ambiguous. It should've been without (any death or hitting enrage).

[ItMe]

Case still stands that it's absurd to think it is happening enough to warrant the OP opening several threads about it.

IS IT happening that often though?
Seems like no one is having this issue nearly as often as OP claims to be.
I think opening threads about this is their hobby...

[LisSquid]

If you are doing the mechanics correctly without any death and hitting enrage but with relatively poor DPS compared to the majority of parsers, why is that considered poor play? PVE is supposed to be player vs environment, not a competition between you and another player.

I'd argue that hitting enrage means you're either not doing the mechanics correctly or playing your class incorrectly. If all the other players in the parse are doing well, and you're the one with poor dps in that situation? That is on you. When I say parse, I also don't mean your damage. I mean the entire metric in the fight. Avoidable damage smacked by, APM, the whole shibbang.


As for the virtue of parsing: There are many factors in a parse that are useful to a fight, and, to be honest, pure damage is only the third or fourth thing I look at. Content below EX has no place in parsing, but you don't really need to look at a chart to see who is performing poorly in those fights as it is both obvious and inconsequential to people getting through the content.

IS IT happening that often though?
Seems like no one is having this issue nearly as often as OP claims to be.
I think opening threads about this is their hobby...

I was thinking the exact same thing. Or perhaps OP jumped into a farm party and got asked why they couldn't hang? That seems to be the key root of a lot of these threads

[linayar]

I'd argue that hitting enrage...

...

Maybe I should edit my post.

EDIT:

As for the virtue of parsing...

Is not being argued, but will everyone who parse consider all those factors or will there be people who just look at one set of numbers?

And agreed regarding the point about the normal content.

[LisSquid]

...

Maybe I should edit my post.

Oh, then I agree completely. Carry on!

[strawberrycake]

will everyone who parse consider all those factors or will there be people who just look at one set of numbers?

As someone who regularly parses in PF for EX and savage, parses in WoW for Heroic and Mythic, you have to account for more then just numbers, are you dodging, are you doing your rotation right, are you constantly casting, people always confuse parsing with just raw damage, but ACT (FFXIV), Details/Recount/Skada(WoW) Actively shows you a break down of what each person in the fight is doing, it shows you when and where they took uneeded damage and in some cases if they're even doing their rotation right.

Now with FFXIV in mind, and all that in mind, you can't blame someone who doesnt wanna carry dead weight/a lazy player/a newer player all the time for the sake of being nice, or dealing with people getting mad you kicked someone/them dming you,its ofc not something that happens all the time, but those things do happen. Wouldn;t it be more pragmatic to present factual data, showing as to why?

In WoW, ironically enough I've seen more cases of people improving from seeing where and why they're messing up, over feeling attacked and not wanting to play the game (in my experience of course) the parses and data from them have helped their raiding community become huge over the last 2 decades, and as someone actively involved in it, I still see plenty of newer players getting better having this data to help them.

In FF you have the balance, but getting people to even join it is a hassle, and you hear and see terms like "meta" thrown around, but learning a proper opener isn't meta, its literally the only way to play your class since FF doesnt have builds and variable rotations like other MMOs, literally playing any other way is just lost damage, and you;re dragging others down. I dont know about anyone else, but thats toxic outside of like roulettes given how they're scaled, and that depends on what you get in roulettes to because of the scaling on top of that.

In the end, Data isn't toxic, how you present it is, and people are flawed, don't do away with data because people can be toxic, they'll find new ways to be toxic, instead encourage proper interactions and being considerate, but that also requires the Dev Team and Community team being more hands on, and thats a whole other problem for the game.

[Awha]

Based on this, I'd say it's not higher threshold, but perhaps different understanding, of what is toxic. I would say someone who is doing their part through the mechanic is not being carried at all, so it's not toxic if they think that's enough to try to join a group.

At the end of the day, though, a PF leader has the right choose whom to keep and whom to kick from their party, while a DF party has a vote to kick function as well.

For the most, I do agree with SE's stance on this, though I can also sympathize with the idea that more information can be useful for improving, especially for doing harder contents.

Sure we can remove the player but I do think this general idea that the if a person does the mechanics and does not die while doing less damage as a healer or tank as an example is inexcusable personally. Problem with the kick function people will not wipe the group the remove the player so in essence they are getting carried.

While I am the type or player to bring it up end of the day for some it is useless cause the only metric some follow is we cleared so we all did good. Sure a parse has a plethora of useful data, though the overall damage number is telling in the moment depending on the context of course. I personally just cannot fathom a universe where a healer or tank should be doing more damage then say a BLM or SAM in normal content when it comes to single target. Sure their damage may not be needed but can we honestly say in good faith they did fine cause we cleared?

This is why I feel SE mindset is dated. They are scared how the data will be used which is understandable but barring the data altogether is overkill. It is akin to the feast chat change, sure some chat was toxic but not all. Instead of just allowing people to report the "toxic" behavior. Though I do not even think feast chat was toxic calling someone bad or telling them to no queue again is not inherently toxic imo. Rude to a degree us but as a player in many games i rarely see someone call someone out without reason. It is not up to the community to inform them how to be better. That is on the player a one quick google search is sometimes enough.

To me the real only toxic behavior is results is doxing someone mocking them on steam unless they ask for it by being a royal dbag, making fun of them if they have a limitation be it physical or mental. Generally those are the extremes I consider as toxic calling someone bad or telling them never to queue again stuff like that is not toxic imo rude yes. For me toxic has to go above and beyond simply being rude. Thus my stance how someone going into a group doing tyr bare minimum required of them necessary to clear the content goes above a beyond being rude imo.

[Callinon]

I said if you're not. Sorry if the sentence structure might've been ambiguous. It should've been without (any death or hitting enrage).

Ah yeah I see it now... yeah editing that was definitely a good idea.

[linayar]

In the end, Data isn't toxic, how you present it is

And that is why we have the situation we have. The data is still there for those who want it, but there is regulation on how you present it against another player.

Sure we can remove the player but I do think this general idea that the if a person does the mechanics and does not die while doing less damage as a healer or tank as an example is inexcusable personally. Problem with the kick function people will not wipe the group the remove the player so in essence they are getting carried.

I think most people would set that minimum standard at clearing the content. So what's "personally inexcusable" for some might not be the basis that SE would want to use if it goes beyond what would be acceptable.

While I am the type or player to bring it up end of the day for some it is useless cause the only metric some follow is we cleared so we all did good. Sure a parse has a plethora of useful data, though the overall damage number is telling in the moment depending on the context of course. I personally just cannot fathom a universe where a healer or tank should be doing more damage then say a BLM or SAM in normal content when it comes to single target. Sure their damage may not be needed but can we honestly say in good faith they did fine cause we cleared?

I think if a damage dealer can output less damage than a healer and a tank and clear the content, then the problem lies with the content and combat system. But if that is the reality, then, in good faith, I would indeed say that they did fine, as in satisfactory.

This is why I feel SE mindset is dated. They are scared how the data will be used which is understandable but barring the data altogether is overkill. It is akin to the feast chat change, sure some chat was toxic but not all. Instead of just allowing people to report the "toxic" behavior. Though I do not even think feast chat was toxic calling someone bad or telling them to no queue again is not inherently toxic imo. Rude to a degree us but as a player in many games i rarely see someone call someone out without reason. It is not up to the community to inform them how to be better. That is on the player a one quick google search is sometimes enough.

To me the real only toxic behavior is results is doxing someone mocking them on steam unless they ask for it by being a royal dbag, making fun of them if they have a limitation be it physical or mental. Generally those are the extremes I consider as toxic calling someone bad or telling them never to queue again stuff like that is not toxic imo rude yes. For me toxic has to go above and beyond simply being rude. Thus my stance how someone going into a group doing tyr bare minimum required of them necessary to clear the content goes above a beyond being rude imo.

I would say being rude and being toxic are synonymous. You're arguing levels of extremity, but that's all they are, differences of degrees.

Or, put it another way, if you don't deal with people's rude behavior, they will turn toxic sooner or later.

[Awha]

And that is why we have the situation we have. The data is still there for those who want it, but there is regulation on how you present it against another player.

I think most people would set that minimum standard at clearing the content. So what's "personally inexcusable" for some might not be the basis that SE would want to use if it goes beyond what would be acceptable.

I think if a damage dealer can output less damage than a healer and a tank and clear the content, then the problem lies with the content and combat system. But if that is the reality, then, in good faith, I would indeed say that they did fine, as in satisfactory.

I would say being rude and being toxic are synonymous. You're arguing levels of extremity, but that's all they are, differences of degrees.

Or, put it another way, if you don't deal with people's rude behavior, they will turn toxic sooner or later.

That is the thing I think most people have the standard due to the dated mindset SE has towards parsing. If that is your metric cool I strongly disagree that clearing the content should be the defining metric. Personally the idea of getting carried does rub me the wrong way. Also it has nothing to be with extremes for me being rude is not toxic I know for others it is though in my eyes they are not synonymous to being toxic.

Toxic generally in my view has been watered down as time went on. It appears now for some the mere perception of rudeness is a enough to be seen as toxic. End of the day a factual statement should not be seen as toxic sure the tone itself could be seen as rude but that does not negate what was said or better yet should not negate what was said. In this game if you point out to someone that they have room to improve or mention how low their damage is compared to other players with similar gear and job especially after a clear outside of a static many will say it does not matter cause the content was cleared. Even on the forums like in that talea of the duty finder or in NN you will see people defend poor play by coming up with a bunch of reasons as to why someone may be playing poorly.

This is one aspect I enjoy in other games the reason behind why someone is playing poorly is irrelevant to many, fact remains they were playing like dog shit and success probably would have been still been possible if the person was dead on the floor. Though I agree it is a problem with fight design and part of the reason I rarely pug. I get I have that competitive nature that does not mesh well with the causal player base and I get SE designed normal and
EX to a degree in terms of E
encounters to be cleared by the largest number of possible players.

I do wish they made the game harder across the board I would kill for mythic + style content in FFXIV.

Though overall a rude person is not necessarily a toxic person or will be a toxic person. Telling someone to never queue for content again because they were a legit waste of space in my eyes is the better option instead of saying nothing and letting that person go on to think they did a good job. That is how I got into hardcore raiding back in WoW. I was a player that operated on the mindset I cleared the content so I am good. Until I got called out for being a dog shit player and was told to kill myself or as they put it go die in a cancer fire. The persons comments did hurt but it also got me thinking why did they say such things what could I have done to cause someone to get that upset. So I asked around looked up guides and damn I was playing my class all wrong. This was an eye opener, I went all that time thinking I was playing fine cause I cleared content.

To me being blunt like that is one of the nicer actions a gamer could do. Cause they did not have to say anything and if they had who knows how long I would have kept going on like that being carried by groups wasting the time of others because of my own ignorance.

Guess in the end I think people just need to get some thicker skin if they think being rude is toxic or a degree of toxic.