DPS who pull mobs

[ZedxKayn]

It very much isn't. I won't say you haven't had super slow groups, as I'm sure that's happened at some point, but acting as if that's the norm/common is just willfully dishonest. Pulling two groups or w/e at a time doesn't result in a super slow run unless no one is using aoe... and I can count the number of times I've seen that on one hand.

I've noticed people on this forum tend to exaggerate things heavily, and it's almost always extremes with some people. Even my own weird experiences I've mentioned in the duty finder thread are a small, small number of runs I've had, hardly the norm. But sure, keep insisting 5 extra minutes (if even that. certainly not 10, for crying out loud) is the end of the world.

It is, 2 minutes is a gross understatement.

And you know, 5 extra minutes + 5 extra minutes + 5 extra minutes... and so on, it adds up, and by the time I've ran 3 slow dungeons, I could've ran 4 or 5 "normal" runs.
I don't care about an extra 5 minutes once or twice but it's gonna be way more than once or twice across my whole playtime.

[Mirhd]

It is, 2 minutes is a gross understatement.

And you know, 5 extra minutes + 5 extra minutes + 5 extra minutes... and so on, it adds up, and by the time I've ran 3 slow dungeons, I could've ran 4 or 5 "normal" runs.
I don't care about an extra 5 minutes once or twice but it's gonna be way more than once or twice across my whole playtime.

4 or 5 normal runs? Seriously? What are you expecting, world record speed running? Because that is absolutely not "normal", and certainly not a reasonable expectation going into a roulette.

We'll go with 5 extra minutes for the sake of argument, that you've run 4 dungeons, and that each run takes around 20 minutes. That would be maybe 1 extra dungeon. It can "add up", but it seriously isn't that big a deal. Again, you are playing with random people, and everything that may come with that - health issues that people may have, they've had a bad day at school/work/etc, and/or just want a chill run, whatever. I myself have wrist, elbow and shoulder pain (hello, years of computer use catching up to me!), and if someone were expecting me to preform at a high level constantly in a roulette of all things, I'd calmly suggest they form their own party, because they clearly have unrealistic expectations. I use the turbo controller function that Steam offers for quick time events for this very reason now because I just can't do it without pain anymore.

TL,DR: You want speed runs? Use the party finder tool. Contrary to what you may think, superduper fast runs aren't the norm, nor is it reasonable to expect them.

[ZedxKayn]

4 or 5 normal runs? Seriously? What are you expecting, world record speed running? Because that is absolutely not "normal", and certainly not a reasonable expectation going into a roulette.

We'll go with 5 extra minutes for the sake of argument, that you've run 4 dungeons, and that each run takes around 20 minutes. That would be maybe 1 extra dungeon. It can "add up", but it seriously isn't that big a deal. Again, you are playing with random people, and everything that may come with that - health issues that people may have, they've had a bad day at school/work/etc, and/or just want a chill run, whatever. I myself have wrist, elbow and shoulder pain (hello, years of computer use catching up to me!), and if someone were expecting me to preform at a high level constantly in a roulette of all things, I'd calmly suggest they form their own party, because they clearly have unrealistic expectations. I use the turbo controller function that Steam offers for quick time events for this very reason now because I just can't do it without pain anymore.

TL,DR: You want speed runs? Use the party finder tool. Contrary to what you may think, superduper fast runs aren't the norm, nor is it reasonable to expect them.

Anything above 14~15mins enters sluggish territory.
Expecting wall to wall pulls is not wanting speedruns. Expecting people to press their buttons is not unrealistic or expecting high level, it's expecting the basics. If people just press their buttons there is no reason for a run to take anymore than that amount of time, it should take less.

[Mirhd]

Anything above 14~15mins enters sluggish territory.
Expecting wall to wall pulls is not wanting speedruns. Expecting people to press their buttons is not unrealistic or expecting high level, it's expecting the basics. If people just press their buttons there is no reason for a run to take anymore than that amount of time, it should take less.

Not going to bother beyond this post, since you seem set in your view, no matter how unrealistic.

Aoeing is a basic expectation, as such abilities are there to be used, and if someone weren't using aoe on groups, I would question that. Wall to wall (W2W from here on)is not "basic", it's something a rather vocal portion of the NA population decided should be. Not pulling W2W doesn't result in some 40 days and 40 nights scenario you seem to be envisioning. Again, you're thinking in extremes - not W2Wing doesn't mean one singular foe at a time. A tank pulling 2 packs isn't going to lead to a run taking 40+ minutes, and if you think anything slightly higher than 14-15 min is sluggish, it sounds like you need to take a step back and reevaluate some things, because good grief. I enjoy a smooth, fast run as much as the next person, but you're being ridiculous here, and your time isn't any more valuable than anyone elses'.

To reiterate: you want those tomes fast? Form a custom party. Roulette doesn't revolve around you, or any other single person.

To be fair couldn't the same be said for those who have things that may hold them back shouldn't they use party finder also?

The same argument can be used for the other side.

No, because of this:

Everyone likes to say it's a team effort when talking about things like healer dps or tanks that should peel, but then give selfish dps a pass when *they* don't play with the team.

That right there is why. You joined a roulette, you're expected to deal with what you get. You can't expect people to conform to what you want because you think it should be done a certain way. If I queue as dps and the tank/healer want to take it slow, I'm cool with it. They wanna go fast? Cool. I'm gonna push my buttons, and that's that.

[Awha]

Not going to bother beyond this post, since you seem set in your view, no matter how unrealistic.

Aoeing is a basic expectation, as such abilities are there to be used, and if someone weren't using aoe on groups, I would question that. Wall to wall (W2W from here on)is not "basic", it's something a rather vocal portion of the NA population decided should be. Not pulling W2W doesn't result in some 40 days and 40 nights scenario you seem to be envisioning. Again, you're thinking in extremes - not W2Wing doesn't mean one singular foe at a time. A tank pulling 2 packs isn't going to lead to a run taking 40+ minutes, and if you think anything slightly higher than 14-15 min is sluggish, it sounds like you need to take a step back and reevaluate some things, because good grief. I enjoy a smooth, fast run as much as the next person, but you're being ridiculous here, and your time isn't any more valuable than anyone elses'.

To reiterate: you want those tomes fast? Form a custom party. Roulette doesn't revolve around you, or any other single person.



No, because of this:



That right there is why. You joined a roulette, you're expected to deal with what you get. You can't expect people to conform to what you want because you think it should be done a certain way. If I queue as dps and the tank/healer want to take it slow, I'm cool with it. They wanna go fast? Cool. I'm gonna push my buttons, and that's that.

So if a group wants to go fast it is fine to pull for them then? Thus putting someone who for outside reasons cannot play at such a level?

Generally when someone pulls for the tank and everyone expect the tank take part that is a sign the group wants to go faster. It is rare to run into situations where healer or dps pull more then what a tank candle handle just due to how easy it is for tanks to perform their role.

That mindset of the party finder does not fly if you get a group that wants to go fast but someone wants to go slower they could also make a PF. That is the point I was getting at the argument can be made from the other side it just depends who the majority in the group up. The comment you quoted just highlights that point.

Like it or not a DPS can dictate the pace of a group. If I have good dps and my healer wants to do small pulls I will still do large pulls because I trust my dps can burn the mobs before I run out or cooldowns and mana.

It is a team effort majority dictate the pace not a single role. Players that want to be the sole person to dictate pace should just create a PF. You are right using a roulette means conforming to what you get or leave. For the most part though like it or not most groups prefer larger pulls that is the standard especially at the higher levels.

That is why whatever role I play and someone pulls small I will run ahead and pull extra if the tank pulls aggro off me I accept that is acknowledgement that it is okay if not then I will keep pulling as much is i can handle with my own cooldowns until the 5 min mark and will start a vote. If it passes cool if not i will just leave. This goes for when I play a tank healer or dps.

Granted if we wipe I will own up to it though something has to go horribly wrong to wipe just over a large pull. Either a gear issue or player skill issue.

[Mirhd]

...

I know what you meant, which is why I quoted that other person again, and all you responded with was what you're been saying all along. The person in the qoute mentioned a tank was pulling smaller, it wasn't "just" the tank or "just" the healer.

Again, did you read any of that? You keep saying "majority", but your "majority" seems to revolve around what the dps want, regardless of how you dress it. I literally just said if the tank/healer (which can be either, or, or both) want a calmer pace and I (also as dps), don't care either way, that's the majority right there. If you, as the odd dps out, insist on going fast? Guess what, You're not the majority, and you can either take what roulette gave you, or eat a penalty. W2W pulls are something a portion of NA decided was expected, it isn't a basic requirement, whatever anyone on this forum tells themselves.

If the opposite is true and only one person wants to go at a calmer pace, they can make a request, and there's nothing wrong with that. The polite thing to do would be to acquiesce said request (though given the "ME ME ME" attitude on this forum...), but if they don't, then the person in that scenario can stick around or leave. I'd probably also leave with them though just on principle.

At the end of the day, roulette is roulette. If someone wants to go slower, deal with it.

[Alaray]

I know what you meant, which is why I quoted that other person again, and all you responded with was what you're been saying all along. The person in the qoute mentioned a tank was pulling smaller, it wasn't "just" the tank or "just" the healer.

Again, did you read any of that? You keep saying "majority", but your "majority" seems to revolve around what the dps want, regardless of how you dress it. I literally just said if the tank/healer (which can be either, or, or both) want a calmer pace and I (also as dps), don't care either way, that's the majority right there. If you, as the odd dps out, insist on going fast? Guess what, You're not the majority, and you can either take what roulette gave you, or eat a penalty. W2W pulls are something a portion of NA decided was expected, it isn't a basic requirement, whatever anyone on this forum tells themselves.

If the opposite is true and only one person wants to go at a calmer pace, they can make a request, and there's nothing wrong with that. The polite thing to do would be to acquiesce said request (though given the "ME ME ME" attitude on this forum...), but if they don't, then the person in that scenario can stick around or leave. I'd probably also leave with them though just on principle.

At the end of the day, roulette is roulette. If someone wants to go slower, deal with it.

You do you if the group is cool with it.


But, if specifically speaking about endgame dungeons, the reason wall-to-wall pulls are considered standard is because it takes genuine effort to die doing them. To most people there's little reason not to do it, and plenty of reason to do it (you can pick a WAR + 3DPS and still do wall to wall pulls in Hero's or Matoya's). And, I mean, if you're a tank and don't push CD's there's virtually no reason for you to be in the group -- would be better just to be a melee with bloodbath. If you're a healer and all you're doing is attacking 2 mobs, why not just pull larger and use a couple free tools to smooth it out while casting a stronger ability and killing more things quicker? Granted, if there's a DF group I get (which, to be transparent, I haven't) where 3/4 want to go slow, I'll just take my penalty and do something else with no hard feelings -- if dungeons were more interesting, more fun and engaging, I might feel more inclined to even do slower groups but... honestly, dungeons as they are now, are incredibly dull affairs.

To say, though, that wall-to-wall (at the very least in endgame dungeons) is not standard is just... incorrect, at least as far as the NA datacenters are concerned (I've genuinely never had a tank who didn't do them, except like 1 time out of... hundreds of groups and even then they usually go ahead after a "can we do big pulls" with... maybe 1 in my entire time being a little passive aggressive about it but, tbh, we didn't really need a tank in Matoya's so if they df-quit it wouldn't've really mattered so the other 3 of us just continued pulling). Like, it's not even really an "elitist raider vs casual player" thing, it's just... easiest, fastest, and most people I run into don't like... run dungeons as their primary piece of content. Most people I run into just want their tomes for the day and to get it over with, so they can go move on to other content.

And, I mean, if you queue into a group where the majority wants to do the larger and faster sets of pulls, will you do them then?

[Awha]

I know what you meant, which is why I quoted that other person again, and all you responded with was what you're been saying all along. The person in the qoute mentioned a tank was pulling smaller, it wasn't "just" the tank or "just" the healer.

Again, did you read any of that? You keep saying "majority", but your "majority" seems to revolve around what the dps want, regardless of how you dress it. I literally just said if the tank/healer (which can be either, or, or both) want a calmer pace and I (also as dps), don't care either way, that's the majority right there. If you, as the odd dps out, insist on going fast? Guess what, You're not the majority, and you can either take what roulette gave you, or eat a penalty. W2W pulls are something a portion of NA decided was expected, it isn't a basic requirement, whatever anyone on this forum tells themselves.

If the opposite is true and only one person wants to go at a calmer pace, they can make a request, and there's nothing wrong with that. The polite thing to do would be to acquiesce said request (though given the "ME ME ME" attitude on this forum...), but if they don't, then the person in that scenario can stick around or leave. I'd probably also leave with them though just on principle.

At the end of the day, roulette is roulette. If someone wants to go slower, deal with it.

Thing is pulling extra is a form of asking if I pull extra and the tank grabs aggro cool, if not I wait on the timer to try and kick and vote determines what the majority wants. How is that hard to understand? It goes for any role but since I mostly play tank or healer I can get away with pulling extra even if one person wants to go slower.

This is also why rarely dps without friends cause I have less tools to survive pulling extra on my own blood bath and arms length do grant me time though. Though as a tank if a healer wants small pulls I will pull W2W and if the dps are on point and the healer either refuses or cannot heal me (which is rare unless they are woefully under geared or just spam pysick or cure 1) most times I will survive at the higher levels. Lower levels it is more of a toss up.

Same for healer, especially if I get dps that use arms length. Also for me it is not just about speed I just find single pulls boring. Though getting through them quicker is nice. Also dps do have a say Judy need the other dps and either tank or healer to join in. Unless it is a duo tank or healer from experience you are likely to have one of those to join in on the extra pull.

This part seems contradictory to everything else you've saying. You say one person doesn't dictate the pace and duty finder is random then this? Which is it? Seems to me you operate under the idea of "I know best and its my way or the highway"

So what if the tank doesn't meet you're expectations of W2W pulls, just roll with it, its DF.

It is not contradictory pulling extra is a form of asking and the vote determines what the group wants. If the vote fails I will just leave though oddly enough it rarely does thus my statement that the general player base probably expects larger pulls.

Sure for those first 5 min I do what I want but after that I go by the will of the vote. I just find asking in chat does not produce a truthful response. Since when ask most often people will say idc but if a vote starts from experience the idc crowd has to make a binary choice yes or no.

Overall for those that are against what I am saying. I have been saying this does not matter about role. Though say if a dps wants to go slower and speaks up how many groups do you think would respond favorably to that dps?

[Artemiz]

That is why whatever role I play and someone pulls small I will run ahead and pull extra if the tank pulls aggro off me I accept that is acknowledgement that it is okay if not then I will keep pulling as much is i can handle with my own cooldowns until the 5 min mark and will start a vote. If it passes cool if not i will just leave. This goes for when I play a tank healer.

This part seems contradictory to everything else you've saying. You say one person doesn't dictate the pace and duty finder is random then this? Which is it? Seems to me you operate under the idea of "I know best and its my way or the highway"

So what if the tank doesn't meet you're expectations of W2W pulls, just roll with it, its DF.

[Mirhd]

This part seems contradictory to everything else you've saying. You say one person doesn't dictate the pace and duty finder is random then this? Which is it? Seems to me you operate under the idea of "I know best and its my way or the highway"

So what if the tank doesn't meet you're expectations of W2W pulls, just roll with it, its DF.

Yes, pretty much what TaleraRistain was saying. Awha and others like to parrot "it's a team effort".... until they don't get what they want. Funny how that works.