DPS who pull mobs

[Awha]

Im doing my job, the DPS decide they can't wait the extra second to let me get a hit on the enemy to I can gain aggro.
They decided on their own to run ahead and pull everything else. Thats not being bad at my role on purpose.



Your opinion is valid and noted, but If Im Tank, let me Tank. Dont tank for me then call me bad when you wont let me do my job and act like your in a rush because you have a date waiting or something XD.




Darn Straight 8)
If Im the Tank, let me tank. If you wanna tank, Ill let you tank.
I WILL be petty about it because why am I the Tank, if a DPS is gonna do it for me?

Question would you also let the healer die thus wiping the group if they were the ones that pulled?

[Baxcel]

I'm a tank main and I've been primarily playing healer this patch.

Never once suggested I was okay with insulting other players/saying they suck in the instance -- my point was: intentionally slowing down a run at the expense of others when there is no viable reason to do so outside of specific circumstances (ie. New player/the rest of the group is not up to par) and then to grief someone in that party because they pulled a little extra is petulant and just as worthy of a vote dismiss. I'm really tired of this entire "coddle the tanks and healers" mentality that's become so popular, especially when it leads to bad information disseminating to newer players, or leads to random, holier-than thou superiority complex from people who don't care enough to even try.

Please grow up.

No you didn't but I didn't say you did.. I was mentioning why I have that mentality..

New to a class, new to a dungeon, and dungeon tied to the MSQ( it was The Burn, when it was new). Telling someone your new, and that you'd prefer to go slower to see everything.. to find the hidden chests or whatever is laying around.. to get the mapping thr realm achevements, just because a dps wants to zip across all content new and old dosnt mean everyone else wants to..

I'm here for the story for the lore for everything that makes this game a final fantasy game.. I don't wanna skip or rush it all.. the story is what's important and if you wanna dead rush to the end and be bored for the next 5 months thats on you.. but I won't let someone make me do it that way and a vast majority of tanks an healers won't let people do it that way.

You talk about coddling the healers and tanks.. well it's coddling the dps when we have to save your butts because your not playing your class correctly and pulling enemies.

[Arrius]

Ah, nothing like being a petty tank.

Or the DPS could burn the current group away that sticks on the tank and then proceed to the next one.

Almost as bad as healers pulling the next group and "Rescue" the tank into them.

[OrpheusKappa]

If you have a dps pulling extra for you it means you are not pulling enough and they are trying to nudge you to pull more.

[ForteNightshade]

Im doing my job, the DPS decide they can't wait the extra second to let me get a hit on the enemy to I can gain aggro.
They decided on their own to run ahead and pull everything else. Thats not being bad at my role on purpose.

Your job is not limited to simply pulling mobs but establishing and maintaining aggro. Allowing the DPS to die out of some petty "revenge" because they ran ahead isn't doing your job. It's the equivalent of a healer refusing to heal because they got angry at someone.

Darn Straight 8)
If Im the Tank, let me tank. If you wanna tank, Ill let you tank.
I WILL be petty about it because why am I the Tank, if a DPS is gonna do it for me?

And in such a scenario, you're the one I'm initiating the Vote Kick on because you're causing an actual issue. Some rando DPS or healer pulling ahead didn't impact anything except to bruise your ego slightly. You electing to let said DPS die puts more work on me as the potential healer and/or simply wastes time since now we have a DPS with weakness. You're in the wrong no matter what justification you want to spin.

Genuine question because I'm confused on where the line in the sand is drawn:

Is pulling pack by pack griefing in any situation or do new tanks get a pass on that while they learn? How I view the convo so far is that it's basically a requirement to pull wall to wall and every tank should know that, which is fair for people who have MMO/previous tanking experience. But what about new people who are coming into FF as their first MMO? Should I, as a DPS, rush the dungeon and pull more even though they're obviously new and not sure of how to tank properly and call them out for griefing?

I'll break it down like this, based on level ranges.

15-50: Pull however much you feel comfortable. Not only do some jobs lack AoE abilities, these are novice level dungeons. It's expected for inexperienced to be more on the wary side.
50-60: You should be experimenting with larger pulls. Not necessarily the whole room but generally two packs. I'm still not going to fault overly cautious tank at this range though.
60-70: Now you need to be pulling room wide. Maybe not some of the super pulls but anything less than two packs tells me you don't have enough confidence to tank yet. So go back to lower dungeons until you do.
70-80: No excuses whatsoever. You're far from new by this point and should pull everything.

Put another way. If you're pulling one pack at the higher level ranges, you're little more than a gimped DPS. Three mobs simply don't deal enough damage that a DPS couldn't tank themselves with a few spot heals. In other words, you're effectively useless pulling one pack at 60+. Even at 50 that could be argued, but that's low enough most people won't say much.

[SwordswornFox]

15-50: Pull however much you feel comfortable. Not only do some jobs lack AoE abilities, these are novice level dungeons. It's expected for inexperienced to be more on the wary side.
50-60: You should be experimenting with larger pulls. Not necessarily the whole room but generally two packs. I'm still not going to fault overly cautious tank at this range though.
60-70: Now you need to be pulling room wide. Maybe not some of the super pulls but anything less than two packs tells me you don't have enough confidence to tank yet. So go back to lower dungeons until you do.
70-80: No excuses whatsoever. You're far from new by this point and should pull everything.

I think it's better to view it based on number of runs you've done in particular dungeons. Knowing good pause points for a healer to top you off mid-gathering before continuing, knowing when its okay to use your gap closer to reach the next mob versus face tanking into the group for aoe's immediately. etc.

So if a tank has run it enough to be comfortable with wall-to-wall, they should do it if they know the healer can handle it.

[Liam_Harper]

Pulling wall to wall in endgame dungeons is a base expectation. If you're not doing that, at that point in time, you're basically griefing. Because you certainly aren't tanking.

The important distinction here is endgame dungeons. Because many people just read something like this, expect it means every dungeon in the game and overreact immediately.

Leveling dungeons and leveling cap dungeons (50, 60, 70, 80) are a different boat entirely. In particular, dungeons like Matoya's and Hero's Gauntlet are absolute jokes compared to something like Holminster or huge Aurum Vale pulls with some first timers. Some leveling dungeons it's reasonable to pull 2-3 packs if you're keeping a good pace because they actually can hit like trucks. It's strange design that it starts harder while leveling, then becomes more faceroll as you reach max level, but that's the way it is.

[LianaThorne]

I'll break it down like this, based on level ranges.

15-50: Pull however much you feel comfortable. Not only do some jobs lack AoE abilities, these are novice level dungeons. It's expected for inexperienced to be more on the wary side.
50-60: You should be experimenting with larger pulls. Not necessarily the whole room but generally two packs. I'm still not going to fault overly cautious tank at this range though.
60-70: Now you need to be pulling room wide. Maybe not some of the super pulls but anything less than two packs tells me you don't have enough confidence to tank yet. So go back to lower dungeons until you do.
70-80: No excuses whatsoever. You're far from new by this point and should pull everything.

Put another way. If you're pulling one pack at the higher level ranges, you're little more than a gimped DPS. Three mobs simply don't deal enough damage that a DPS couldn't tank themselves with a few spot heals. In other words, you're effectively useless pulling one pack at 60+. Even at 50 that could be argued, but that's low enough most people won't say much.

I'm not disagreeing with any of this, just putting that out there. I agree with how you put the differences and wasn't really arguing that tanks shouldn't be pulling full at 80. I'm just saying I see people also trying to do this in lower level dungeons (for example I had a healer run off in the opposite direction of a newbie tank in Stone Vigil within the last 2-3 days and pull packs on their own down the hall while the tank was grabbing the ones in a side room and subsequently died within 10 seconds along with the DPS that followed after them and get pissy at the tank about it). So I was curious who would be considered at fault for that.

[Jeeqbit]

It's strange design that it starts harder while leveling, then becomes more faceroll as you reach max level, but that's the way it is.

It's not a strange design. The reason max level dungeons are easy is because gear progression is important in an MMO. You need to feel that your better gear is making content easier. A party that just reached the minimum item level to qualify for these recent expert dungeons would probably take a really long time to kill everything.

There is an argument to be made that our gear is too impactful and that it shouldn't be that just having crafted gear makes the expert dungeons not even require a healer.

[ItMe]

There is an argument to be made that our gear is too impactful and that it shouldn't be that just having crafted gear makes the expert dungeons not even require a healer.

Especially since each expacs endgame dungeons (50/60/70/80) have a wider gap between min ilvl and when they start synching players down than the dungeons you run mid expac do.
The endgame stuff legit let's you faceroll it harder.