A potential rework to the level-sync system.

[Intellion]

Not every action is a weaponskill that scales off weapon damage.

Standard Step says Hi. It's incredibly devastating at low levels, and that's just one example.


Those who are new to the content and doing it for the first time? Those who want to see those new players having a good experience?

Making things too easy leads to boredom and negligence because there's no need to learn the most effective ways to use your abilities. Then you put the player into much more difficult content and they're in trouble because they've developed lazy habits.

If you don't like the current level sync system, don't do content that requires level sync. Stick to content your level, or do the content unsynced and solo/with friends. No one is going to object to you facerolling your way through The Vault solo.

Again, as I've stated before, arguments like these would make more sense if said outdated content we're talking about were actually challenging with level and skill sync and actually required you to play optimally with level-appropriate rotations.

However, such a challenge doesn't even exist since synced veterans' ilvls still end up turning synced content into a brainless steamroll. The only literal difference will be that under the current system, veterans are spamming a few buttons over and over. With my suggestion, they at least get to use whatever skill they want to alleviate even some of the boredom. Would mobs die faster? Perhaps. But let's not fool ourselves here: with the current system, mobs already melt super fast anyways the moment synced veterans enter the fray.

So again, I'll dare point out that the thing that the no-crowd are trying to defend (balance/challenge in outdated content) doesn't even exist in the first place, so what exactly are they arguing for? With or without skill sync, said outdated content are brainless stomps anyways, so again, I say just let the veterans use all of their skills to at least alleviate some of their boredom and at least give them a sense of progression.

And again, no one is calling for the removal of level sync, only skill sync. Hence, I don't understand either why the no-crowd keeps throwing the "Don't do content that requires level sync" phrase. That completely ruins the point.

No, no one's asking for Lv. 80 powerhouses to be thrown into roulettes as is. We already have undersized parties for that. All we're asking for is to at least let us have fun gameplay-wise and allow us to use our full kit even when we are level-synced. Because let's be honest, even if you reach the endgame, most of this game's content will be synced (since most of the time, you'll be doing roulettes for tomes and money or older FATEs for relic stuff), and most of the time we don't even get to enjoy the Lv. 80 kits that we worked hard to attain.


And again, I'll dare to use the community itself to argue against the current system:

If the current skill sync that we have now is truly "healthy" for both the gameplay and the community, then why do most people turn it off via undersized parties when given the chance in Party Finder the moment the situation allows for it? If people truly enjoyed the "challenging" outdated content that we have now, then why do nearly all veterans AND sprouts just bumrush to the finish line instead of taking in the sights and exploring slowly and carefully? If players truly found forced skill sync so "engaging" in old content, then why do so many people play Blue Mage?

I don't know, but based on what I'm personally seeing in the community, I think the game will be far better off if we did away with forced skill sync on level-synced content.

[BlitzAceRush]

If the current skill sync that we have now is truly "healthy" for both the gameplay and the community, then why do most people turn it off via undersized parties when given the chance in Party Finder the moment the situation allows for it? If people truly enjoyed the "challenging" outdated content that we have now, then why do nearly all veterans AND sprouts just bumrush to the finish line instead of taking in the sights and exploring slowly and carefully? If players truly found forced skill sync so "engaging" in old content, then why do so many people play Blue Mage?

Just going to respond to this:
People's use of undersized has nothing to do with weather or not syncing is good or bad, the sync system is in place so people's first time through is as close to the ways the dev's intended as can be, undersized is there for someone to engage in content how they wish.
Your point also doesn't really stand up, you say "why do most people turn it off via undersized parties in party finder the moment the situation allows for it?" Well the situation allows for it right away, you could just clear everything unsynced your first time through, get some friends or randoms in party finder and clear your way to victory, mowing down everything with your full kit always. If what you say was true, the duty roulette would be empty and the party finder bursting with dungeon and normal mode parties ready to unsync their way through content.
However that's not the case at all, the duty finder is active and always popping while its rare to ever see a regular dungeon or normal mode trial in the party finder unless it's an unsynced farm or (ironically) BLU going in synced for the log/spells.

I've got everything at 80 and I'm fine with the system, is it a bit dull if I get a low level dungeon? Kinda but it really doesn't bother me too much, the only thing I'd change is letting all dps have some form of their aoe at lower levels, but otherwise I wouldn't want my full kit kept, because I know it would go one of two ways.
1: I'm putting in level 80 effort, but getting back level 24 results.
2: The level 24 might as well go make a snack because no matter how furiously they press those three buttons, they'll never keep up with me.

As for "It's not balanced anyway! Why bother!?" Just because something isn't perfect, doesn't mean you destroy it utterly, we're already too strong when synced down, the last thing they should do is make that worse.

[Jojoya]

If the current skill sync that we have now is truly "healthy" for both the gameplay and the community, then why do most people turn it off via undersized parties when given the chance in Party Finder the moment the situation allows for it? If people truly enjoyed the "challenging" outdated content that we have now, then why do nearly all veterans AND sprouts just bumrush to the finish line instead of taking in the sights and exploring slowly and carefully? If players truly found forced skill sync so "engaging" in old content, then why do so many people play Blue Mage?

Because they want to get their reward and get out as fast as possible from content they've already done dozens if not hundreds of times. Challenge has disappeared once you've done the content enough times.

Good job bringing up BLU because that's the best possible example of why skill sync is needed since BLU has no skill sync in any content.

It's okay for them to make that choice for themselves. It's not okay for them to make that choice for other players, especially when that's going to ruin the experience for new players doing the content for the first time. Most players like to feel their contribution means something when first doing the content. It's only once they've repeated it several times that they stop caring.

Low level content isn't there for your benefit. It's there for the benefit of players who are leveling and learning. Don't like the skill sync? Don't queue for low level content or roulettes that can put you into low level content. They don't offer any rewards that you can't get doing max level content outside of the dungeon specific gear and if you're after that, you're probably going to run it unsynced for speed repeats anyway. Stick to the Level 80 and Expert Roulettes.

[Deceptus]

Because they want to get their reward and get out as fast as possible from content they've already done dozens if not hundreds of times. Challenge has disappeared once you've done the content enough times.

Good job bringing up BLU because that's the best possible example of why skill sync is needed since BLU has no skill sync in any content.

BLU is a bad example because it's an apples to oranges comparison.

BLU's power comes in their ability to freeze enemies (trash) and then one shot them.

Otherwise, they're an under powered dps who has to cast 200 potency aoe (with dropoff). Go try to kill a group without ultravibration or any of the other one shot spells. It takes a bit to kill a pack.

If anything, it shows how keeping your skills CAN be done.

If one person is synced down from 80 an keeps their skills, the run will go faster. (if DPS)

If two people are synced down, the run will go really fast. (Especially if DPS), not so much if it's a tank and healer who are synced down.

If four people are synced down? Then no "newbie" is helped, you're doing old outdated content so again WHO CARES?

Just as an aside I want to mention this:

I routinely help people get their BLU spells Mind Blast and Glower. Those can be unsynced as the learn rate is 100%. I do this on my PLD.

Guess what?

I equip the ilvl 90 Curtana Nexus to kill the bosses and do you know why?

EVEN AT LVL 80 AN ILVL 90 ITEM CAN NOT ONE SHOT A LVL 15 BOSS WITH AUTO ATTACKS.

Now imagine what will happen when instead of the 53 damage Nexus weapon we have the 13 damage it would be synced down

I really think people are severely overthinking how powerful we are and how limiting weapon damage really is.

[Kemiko]

SNIP

BLU isn't even a real job. It's a Limited Job. It's not a good example of anything other than a job intended to be outside the norm.

And good job moving the goal post. Nothing here was brought up about weapon damage, just your job abilities in sync content. Higher level job abilities generally comes with higher potency, which translates to more damage. So, by default, if you kept these job abilities in content not intended for them to exist you'll be doing more than the intended damage. But wait, what if your potencies were reduced to compensate for this?

You will also have more job abilities than intended, allowing you more actions than intended. Using the worst offender, Sastasha with an at level player will be outshined by a lv80 player, even if said 80 was nerfed heavily to compensate. But, nerf them harder, I hear. In which case you're putting in a tremendous amount of effort to reach the average LV15 players state of play that not even on release max level Extreme trials demand. Very quickly people will question the purpose of being so heavily nerfed when the game is supposed to be a welcoming experience.

I really hate to say that I honestly agree with the "just don't do it then" sentiment as much as I think it's a poor answer to this discussion. As much as people would enjoy keeping their kit throughout the game, the fact of the matter is you do not in situations you agree to. You agree to a sync in a dungeon before you go in, you agree to a sync in a FATE before you participate in it, you agree to a sync for single-player duties if you happen to be overleveled when you attempt it. At no point are you forced to do any of this, even Main Scenario, if you really don't want to. And, at least outside of Main Scenario, you aren't missing anything for not doing it. You are granted incentive for sure, but let's not pretend we aren't privy to intention sync attempts to provide.

If you must do a low level dungeon, and you aren't agreeing to the rules of a roulette, you always do have the option to undersize it solo or with others looking to do the same. In the case of you going into a roulette and all involved are not new to the instance hardly means they aren't using it for the other incentives provided (such as boosted experience) and could still be at-level with the content. In the event all present are max level, you're just here for the tomes - we all know this and you knew what you signed up for. That's the nature of the deal.

[Deceptus]

I really hate to say that I honestly agree with the "just don't do it then" sentiment as much as I think it's a poor answer to this discussion. As much as people would enjoy keeping their kit throughout the game, the fact of the matter is you do not in situations you agree to. You agree to a sync in a dungeon before you go in, you agree to a sync in a FATE before you participate in it, you agree to a sync for single-player duties if you happen to be overleveled when you attempt it. At no point are you forced to do any of this, even Main Scenario, if you really don't want to. And, at least outside of Main Scenario, you aren't missing anything for not doing it. You are granted incentive for sure, but let's not pretend we aren't privy to intention sync attempts to provide.

Here's why the "Just don't do it" mindset doesn't work.

Fewer players in the roulettes results in higher queue times. Do you really want the return of 30 minute queues for dps players?

Veteran players need an incentive to queue for things that might not benefit them. IMHO being synced to content where you go from 24 buttons to 2 is more of a disincentive to queue for certain content.

[linayar]

Here's why the "Just don't do it" mindset doesn't work.

Fewer players in the roulettes results in higher queue times. Do you really want the return of 30 minute queues for dps players?

Veteran players need an incentive to queue for things that might not benefit them. IMHO being synced to content where you go from 24 buttons to 2 is more of a disincentive to queue for certain content.

I don't usually see 30-minute DPS queues with the system as is right now, so this particular argument doesn't make sense.

And as we've established, SE has other ways to incentivize running old contents.

[Deceptus]

I don't usually see 30-minute DPS queues with the system as is right now, so this particular argument doesn't make sense.

And as we've established, SE has other ways to incentivize running old contents.

They used to exist. That's the point. And will come back if people stop queuing into the roulettes.

[Penthea]

Veteran players need an incentive to queue for things that might not benefit them. IMHO being synced to content where you go from 24 buttons to 2 is more of a disincentive to queue for certain content.

There are already incentives: tomes and xp.

Players are not going to run content solely because they get to keep all their skills. Players generally do content to get something or to help someone else get something. Even if someone were to abstain from doing lower lvl roulettes to get tomes, the fact remains that they are queuing for content because they want tomes.

Remove the tomes and xp gains, and replace them with giving players all their skills in any content, you would actually see a drop in the amount of people who do lower lvl roulettes. Why? Because they would simply go elsewhere to get some manner of useful loot. Having all your skills isn't enough of an incentive for most people to do content because it would be seen as a waste of time to do content for no reward for themselves or a buddy they're helping.

Having a Sastasha lvl of kit isn't exciting to say the least, but I can guarantee it wouldn't be much more fun if you had your full kit. The mobs aren't designed to be against players with massive kits and the lack of mechanics would mean many skills just wouldn't be used, especially with the increased dps from major cds and ogcds resulting in things dying much faster. Adjusting the damage output isn't enough if a player has more buttons to press in a gcd than a player who is actually the lvl the content is intended for.

I don't find it particularly fun to have most of my kit wiped out, but I understand that low lvl content isn't balanced for veteran players, it's balanced for novices. So when I do content that is intended for a novice I expect to be faced with a situation that only a novice would find interesting. On the days in which I want more or my full kit I simply avoid putting myself into a situation that could land me in super low lvl content.

First impressions matter. As I said in my previous post had the dungeon content I did when I started FFXIV been a faceroll due to being matched up with higher lvl players blasting things with their huge kits then I would have left the game. Sure some sprouts may not know any better, but not every sprout is new to mmos, and many would be turned off by being unable to entirely avoid being boosted while using DF. Never mind how you don't need to be an experienced player to find being unable to learn your class to be frustrating because you're unwillingly getting carried.

And frankly I don't think anyone's desire to have their full kit in all content is a good enough reason to ruin the first impressions the game has on new players. If you want your full kit then do content that allows you to use it. That's not difficult to do.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

TEM CAN NOT ONE SHOT A LVL 15 BOSS WITH AUTO ATTACKS.[/B]
Now imagine what will happen when instead of the 53 damage Nexus weapon we have the 13 damage it would be synced down

I really think people are severely overthinking how powerful we are and how limiting weapon damage really is.

Weapon damage is irrelevant. Potency is the only value you need to look at to see how much damage two characters would deal when comparing rotations.

Let's take a look at WAR. We have a level 30 WAR & a level 80 WAR. We'll both give them all level 1 gear & level 1 weapon so when inside, their stats are almost identical and weapon damage between them is the same, so the only thing that matters is potency and nothing else.

Billy the level 30 WAR rushes in, pops berserk, does 5x overpower, plus 4x normal Overpower outside of berserk for good measure. Just for simplification, we'll make crits do 1.5x damage for damage.
Billy does (130 * 1.5(crit) * 1.2(DH)) = 234 potency for each of his initial 5 overpowers in Berserk, for a total of 1170 potency. his extra 4 overpowers bump it up to 1690 potency. Not bad Billy.

Chad the level 80 WAR rolls in and has 100 beast Gauge, 2x Infuriates and IR ready. He rolls in and pops IR, followed by 5x Decimate. He does (250 * 1.5 * 1.2) = 450 potency per hit. With his 5 decimates, he does 2250 damage. Already nearly 1.5 times as much damage as Billy did. But we're not even done yet.

During that IR, Chad got to use a free upheaval (450 potency) & Onslaught (100), meaning Chad has now done 2800 potency total, now closing in on nearly 2x as much as Billy. Chad does 2x more Decimate to drain his 100 beast gauge, adding another 500 potency, now up to 3300 potency. Chad now finally whips out his 2x Infuriates, doing 2x Chaotic cyclones. (400 * 1.5 * 1.2) = 720 potency, or 1440 potency total. Meaning Chad has now done 4740 potency, or nearly 3x as much damage as Billy.

But wait! Chad also has Storm's eye, giving him a 10% damage boost! meaning he actually has done more than 3x as much damage than Billy, at 5214 potency. He did over 3x as much damage as Billy in the same 9 GCDs as Billy, and this is only on AoE (Spoiler alert: Chad is doing over 5x as much damage as Billy between Fell Cleave & Inner Chaos on single target). We haven't even talked about the fact that while Billy is bleeding out from damage over there, Chad is popping his Nascent Flash to completely laugh at his enemy's attempts to hurt him by life-stealing himself to full HP from just a single decimate!

Even outside of burst, Chad can do nearly 4x overpower's worth of damage every 30s compared to Billy from Upheaval. Chad can also do 70 more potency every 2 GCDs, and every 4-6 can do 2x Overpower damage in the form of Decimate! Which not only deals more damage, but also reduces his Infuriate Cooldown closer to Wreck Billy's damage harder when he can use more Chaotic Cyclones! And what does Billy have to answer to Chad? nothing.

I think you don't understand that weapon damage will do nothing. Given equal gear to nullify weapon damage out of the equation, a level 80 will still be doing several times more damage than a level 30 could ever possibly do. This is also just for Warrior, a job that is largely GCD bound. I actually tried NIN first but that was getting so hilarious at how hard a level 80 NIN was curbstomping a level 30 one that I switched to Warrior as a more tame example.

I also enjoy how you brought up a slippery slope earlier when you're the one talking about how we should just completely blow out balance just because newer jobs weren't as properly tuned to low levels as they should have been. The solution is to fix those jobs at lower levels, not let every job do the same.

Level Sync will never change. It's been brought up countless times in the past, the devs have mentioned it in liveletters why they keep it as it is. it's to maintain parity between a level capped character of a job and a low level character of the same job. When the current system is future proofed for every expansion to come, requires zero tweaking of potency, %s, etc to work, and does a dang good job at keeping two characters of differing levels in a job to maintain parity, why would they ever spend even a nanosecond designing a new system? "Don't fix whats not broken."

As far as your worries, the roulettes already provide the highest exp-time ratio the game offers. and if by some unholy miracle people decide leveling roulette isn't giving enough and mass exodus? They'll just crank the rewards up ala MSQ roulette. Put on your favorite streaming service, kick back and relax with your 2 button rotation, or simply avoid roulettes altogether.