My first experience at tanking

[Kaurhz]

"Many" situation where a Tank could pull wall to wall and survive without a healer's help?

Such as? In which dungeon? And since you say "many", can you mention like, multiple examples of this? The only one I can imagine is Dzmael due to the crystal buff at the beginning, but I have difficulty thinking about others where a tank could pull *everything* and survive without aid from a healer. I don't think you can even do that in Dzmael past the 1st boss.

This is what they call hyperbole tbh

[Vaern]

"Many" situation where a Tank could pull wall to wall and survive without a healer's help?

Such as? In which dungeon? And since you say "many", can you mention like, multiple examples of this? The only one I can imagine is Dzmael due to the crystal buff at the beginning, but I have difficulty thinking about others where a tank could pull *everything* and survive without aid from a healer. I don't think you can even do that in Dzmael past the 1st boss.

It happens that a warrior using nascent flash with a group that has a somewhat decent damage output doesn't need any attention from their healer for a while.

While this certainly doesn't happen all the time, especially in DF, it's not that rare in my experience. Basically if the pack dies fast enough there's no need to heal more than what the war can already sustain themself for.

I wouldn't call that "Many" though.

[Jeeqbit]

"Many" situation where a Tank could pull wall to wall and survive without a healer's help?

Such as? In which dungeon? And since you say "many", can you mention like, multiple examples of this? The only one I can imagine is Dzmael due to the crystal buff at the beginning, but I have difficulty thinking about others where a tank could pull *everything* and survive without aid from a healer. I don't think you can even do that in Dzmael past the 1st boss.

(Spoiler warning on scrolling through these)

The Lost City of Amdapor (Hard), Hullbreaker Isle (Hard), The Drowned City of Skalla, Saint Mociane's Arboretum (Hard), Shisui of the Violet Tides, Hell's Lid, The Swallow's Compass, The Antitower, The Twinning (the first pulls), Xelphatol, The Qitana Ravel (especially on PLD), Malikah's Well, The Heroes' Gauntlet, Sohm Al, Dohn Mheg (certain pulls), Matoya's Relict, Baelsar's Wall.

The common thing about these dungeons is the item level sync is very high so that the mobs hardly hurt, or tanks have enough tools that in the right circumstances they could get through. You can do it in some leveling dungeons at higher levels because of the amount of self-heals a tank gets, and a PLD would probably pull off some of the ones I didn't mention. Some other dungeons have specific pulls that would be fine.

If you don't believe me then don't believe me... I've been tanking for many years and had enough healers disconnect or not heal much.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

"Many" situation where a Tank could pull wall to wall and survive without a healer's help?

Such as? In which dungeon? And since you say "many", can you mention like, multiple examples of this? The only one I can imagine is Dzmael due to the crystal buff at the beginning, but I have difficulty thinking about others where a tank could pull *everything* and survive without aid from a healer. I don't think you can even do that in Dzmael past the 1st boss.

You realize the dungeon speedrun meta is saccing a healer to bring a 3rd dps for a reason right?

Every single wall-to-wall pull can be solo-healed by PLD so long as dps is decent enough. 60 dungeons are very tight (PLD - Clemency, would need extremely high dps due to Clemency's high MP cost), 70 and higher dungeons are trivial (PLD - Req + Reduced cost clemency make it a god of solo-healing), 80 dungeons (WAR (nascent flash + one chaotic cyclone cancels 2-3 sets of autos) / PLD can easily do them, Maybe DRK if dps is extremely high)

GNB is arguably the one tank that is most reliant on a healer. DRK can heavily reduced time to death with TBN and paced out Abyssal drain to nullify a set of autos, WAR can full heal from 1 HP with Nascent Flash, and PLD is just effectively immortal for 30s+ between hallowed and Clemency being Overpowered beyond belief. If you have great dps, you could easily wall-to-wall any pull in the game when the PLD has Requiescat without the healer needing to heal at all, or maybe throwing a single ogcd.

I've even self-healed some of the wall-to-wall pulls in 71-79 dungeons after my healer accidentally stepped in the aoes when trying to holy before. It really ain't that hard. Heck, WAR could do it without even the slightest care back in 4.2+ because Steel Cyclone had built in lifesteal and IR + steel cyclone was effectively hallowed ground in a different skin with how immortal it made you.

Like, you can even see in the final SHB dungeon of the MSQ which has a decent ilvl sync (430), the WAR does as much wall-to-wall pulling as he can and he shrugs off the pulls with little effort due to how powerful Nascent Flash is. Now imagine how utterly trivial it'd be with PLD who has infinitely stronger self healing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGJ7wiPusJk

[Greyhawk]

I laugh but how is this also not considered toxic also?

I mostly tank but I do not understand this mindset. In the grand scheme tank playstyle does not change be it three mobs or twenty. Group success is largely based around the healer and overall group dps.

Of course it's toxic - but not to the people who want to get through this the most efficient way possible. Here is why DPS pulling is the most inefficient way of doing things:

(Idiot A) doesn't like the fact that the Tank is running behind the group because (Idiot A) hits Peloton to get ahead of everyone as soon as possible while out of range of everyone, or any other ability to get ahead of everyone like it's some kind of race. (Idiot A) begins pulling. (Idiot A) then starts running around like a fool, while it wastes the Tank's time to try and gather what mobs (Idiot A) keeps kiting away from Tank. (Idiot A) dies after he wall pulls himself in front of everyone while the Tank is also sprinting from behind to catch up to (Idiot A) who also hit sprint as soon as he grabbed the first set of mobs. While sprinting, Tank is trying to gather mobs off (Idiot A). Mobs go to Healer who was trying to heal (Idiot A) on the run, who now has agro on eight mobs because Tank wasn't the one pulling mobs. Thanks, (Idiot A). Healer had also tried to run to Tank to get agro, who died on the way from 8 mobs beating them on the back of the head.

You actually waste more time in a dungeon wiping and starting over because someone was just too impatient for the tank. The above represents exactly the same type of trash that I see on almost a weekly basis - no joke. You spent more time from DPS pulling, running around like they are on fire, Healer trying to heal them (because that's what they do) and can't keep up with a wall pulling moron who can't take the hits. All while the Tank is trying to gather every mob hitting the Healer and DPS and wipes everyone.

So tell me which is more toxic - Letting one die, or the group die. When I tank, especially expert, I'm the first one trying to get out in front of everyone - but I'm not burning 15 cooldowns to get there first. I use sprint in situations where I run to the wall to gather the mobs, not run to them first by hitting sprint to start off. I hit sprint after I'm gathering the 1st group, to get to the wall to gather the rest. When you F up my Chi in a group and screw up my pulls by being first to mobs to pull them, that tells me that your tanking skills in a previous life need to be shown to the rest of us. So, have at it my friend. We'll be back here enjoying the popcorn to make it that much easier to gather the mobs after you die. It's much easier to gather mobs that will run to me next when the Healer is standing right next to me and not running around like a fool.

[Shin96]

(Idiot A) then starts running around like a fool, while it wastes the Tank's time to try and gather what mobs (Idiot A) keeps kiting away from Tank.

I couldn't have worded it better than you did. I agree with everything you say.

Essentially what happens is they use Sprint and Peleton to be the first in line, kite the enemies away, then the party arrives and what happens next? Mob A is on the left side, and Mob B is on the right side. All the while they run around like a headless chicken because they're scared of dying, running to the healer and making the whole process a pain to go through. It may seem like nothing to them but you can't pick up aggro with so much space in-between all at once. But don't expect much from them because the Tank is supposed to suck it up for them. Since apparently that's my job's description.

If a tank ends up slowing down the process purposefully then I absolutely agree - you should tell them or kick them via vote. But that's not what happens most of the time. I pull almost every group of enemies I see provided my healer is efficent, which is clear after one group of mobs or two. By running headfirst you do not only make matters more complicated, but you're also telling me screw everyone they will put up with it anyway. NO thanks.

[Awha]

Of course it's toxic - but not to the people who want to get through this the most efficient way possible. Here is why DPS pulling is the most inefficient way of doing things:

(Idiot A) doesn't like the fact that the Tank is running behind the group because (Idiot A) hits Peloton to get ahead of everyone as soon as possible while out of range of everyone, or any other ability to get ahead of everyone like it's some kind of race. (Idiot A) begins pulling. (Idiot A) then starts running around like a fool, while it wastes the Tank's time to try and gather what mobs (Idiot A) keeps kiting away from Tank. (Idiot A) dies after he wall pulls himself in front of everyone while the Tank is also sprinting from behind to catch up to (Idiot A) who also hit sprint as soon as he grabbed the first set of mobs. While sprinting, Tank is trying to gather mobs off (Idiot A). Mobs go to Healer who was trying to heal (Idiot A) on the run, who now has agro on eight mobs because Tank wasn't the one pulling mobs. Thanks, (Idiot A). Healer had also tried to run to Tank to get agro, who died on the way from 8 mobs beating them on the back of the head.

You actually waste more time in a dungeon wiping and starting over because someone was just too impatient for the tank. The above represents exactly the same type of trash that I see on almost a weekly basis - no joke. You spent more time from DPS pulling, running around like they are on fire, Healer trying to heal them (because that's what they do) and can't keep up with a wall pulling moron who can't take the hits. All while the Tank is trying to gather every mob hitting the Healer and DPS and wipes everyone.

So tell me which is more toxic - Letting one die, or the group die. When I tank, especially expert, I'm the first one trying to get out in front of everyone - but I'm not burning 15 cooldowns to get there first. I use sprint in situations where I run to the wall to gather the mobs, not run to them first by hitting sprint to start off. I hit sprint after I'm gathering the 1st group, to get to the wall to gather the rest. When you F up my Chi in a group and screw up my pulls by being first to mobs to pull them, that tells me that your tanking skills in a previous life need to be shown to the rest of us. So, have at it my friend. We'll be back here enjoying the popcorn to make it that much easier to gather the mobs after you die. It's much easier to gather mobs that will run to me next when the Healer is standing right next to me and not running around like a fool.

That has less to do with a DPS pulling and more so an idiot pulling. If someone pulls for the tank and refuses to bring them back to the tank that is 100% on them. Hell if I was healing and ran into a tank that pulled that crap running around I would also let them die. Cannot heal stupid.

Though I will say if it is sastasha I have aoe kited all the mobs you to the clams and all the mobs before the final boss. Final area was a tad tricky cause of the range but it is was fun as a DNC. When the tank refused to do larger pulls.

[Pells]

Though I will say if it is sastasha I have aoe kited all the mobs you to the clams and all the mobs before the final boss.

All the mobs. ALL. THE. MOBS.

Including the two guards at the door to the hole, and the eight in the bar who are fighting each other?

Did you complain about the lack of tanking while you were at it, while the rest of the party was in the captain's quarters? Because:

there was this ranged dps toon who apparently thought that killing everything was a good idea, while I thought that just completing the dungeon objectives was a better idea

[Awha]

All the mobs. ALL. THE. MOBS.

Including the two guards at the door to the hole, and the eight in the bar who are fighting each other?

Did you complain about the lack of tanking while you were at it, while the rest of the party was in the captain's quarters? Because:

Nah I just did it cause I got annoyed with the single pulls and the tank pulling that they are the leader so I did my own thing just to prove a point. I did ignore the slaves though. I did even say I am the captain now. I also did it so they could not remove me cause I was always in combat or had loot rolling cause they did try to wait out the timer. This was also months ago I rarely dps now in DF unless I am with friends.

[KayRadley]

My first tanking experiences were rough too. One time while I was starting out as a DRK, we were running Qarn and I was struggling. The healer turned toxic and refused to rez after wiping.

Wound up not touching tanking again until Gunbreaker dropped.