Positionals

[LeonKeyh]

Since melee also have to deal with not being able to hit the boss, how about we throw positionals onto the BLM as well? What people seem to not be getting is that positionals are on top all the other things from more complex rotations to mechanics that just make it so that you simply cannot hit the boss.

Is this a troll account? It has to be right? What's your real primary account/character?

We've already gone through all of this. Each role (except Ranged Physical, which is part of the reason it feels so unfulfilling) has combat mechanics that ultimately create a puzzle whenever combined with fight mechanics. Casters (DPS and Healers) have cast times which they can't move during, melee has positionals and range limitations.

[ssunny2008]

Even on Sam they are unmeaningful coming out to less than a percent on your dps over a fight

Well... if you spam it all in Shinten it should be somewhere from 3-4% based on your skillspeed. But that´s not even the point. It gives you the advantage to use all your kenki stuff way more. And playing positionals properly and using all of your tools, makes a huge difference and is defines definately the gap between a good and a bad / midcore player.

I don´t know how often i read "unmeaningful" and similar stuff yet. What is meaningful then? Give some examples? Give a real idea for a rework which doesn´t sound like action mmorpg?! I couldn´t even say, if you would be fine if those potencies on positionals would be doubled or needed for any combo, whatever. It sounds more like you want to get ride of them with the only argument "They have no meaning, so they´re annoying.", even if you´ve said in one sentence, you wouldn´t mind "more meaningful positionals".
In the next step it´s on top of complexity and you care for any damage loss, any uptime loss, several disengages, whatever... So how can they be unmeaningful, when you straight up lose damage, if you don´t play them?

I really don´t get it... either you´ve no real plan, you don´t know what you actually want or yes, you might be a prewriter with a 2nd account who tries to push this thread with another strategy.

From all what i read, i would clearly say in the end, melee isn´t for you. All what makes melees actual melees, fun to play and somehow challenging, seems to be a no-go for you and the contradiction in your posts is real. It doesn´t even matter if something has 10 potency or 100 in the end, when it´s fun to play and shows that obvious difference between "good or bad". It gives space to improve yourself.
But if you really want a class who can do whatever they want, at any time, without any damage loss, you should play phys. range. But beware, you could get bad RNG proccs or miss some in time due to doubleproccs / unlucky timings.

Don´t get me wrong, way more complexity and pressure on the player with different class-mechanics and way more important positionals would be a great thing where the player would finally NEEDS to improve, but i really don´t get what your point is in the end. It seems like everything but staying at the boss and playing 123 without any break is annoying for you and at this point i see no chance to make you somehow happy with melee classes without destroying the whole game and balance design. (It would be boring af too so...)

[IruruCece]

Again though, BLM have more tools to deal with those challenges than MDPS do.

I'd be good with that. DRG, the positionals were always bonuses, nice to hit, never required, yet were given a skill that required positionals, doesn't fit. Let monk have that type of stuff as it has always been Monks wheel house. I'm not against positionals that are meaningful and or fit the design of the class, I'm against positionals that are added simply for sake of complexity like raiden thrust with minimal benefit. Either make them meaningful and fit the classes or just remove them.

Frankly, if I were a serious progression raider, I wouldn't want to go into a savage/extreme with anyone, regardless of their chosen melee DPS, who thinks of their positionals as something that's "nice to hit" when they feel like it. Yes, all content is clearable with minimum effort. Better groups of players who hit their positionals more often will clear faster and more consistently than people who don't even bother to get everything out of their job that they can. It's not even asking for perfection, it's simply asking for effort, and your posts have consistently been about whining that some additional effort is required for some of your weaponskills.

If SE balanced the game entirely around people who just want to be able to hit buttons on the boss without worrying about potential interruptions to their rotation, the game wouldn't have made it past Heavensward. I'm convinced if they did make landing positionals more meaningful by giving them a serious damage buff, the complaints in this and other recent threads about them would barely change, because at the end of the day there's a lot of players who don't want to do them and don't want to feel "punished" for not doing them.

[Nothv13]

Frankly, if I were a serious progression raider, I wouldn't want to go into a savage/extreme with anyone, regardless of their chosen melee DPS, who thinks of their positionals as something that's "nice to hit" when they feel like it. Yes, all content is clearable with minimum effort. Better groups of players who hit their positionals more often will clear faster and more consistently than people who don't even bother to get everything out of their job that they can. It's not even asking for perfection, it's simply asking for effort, and your posts have consistently been about whining that some additional effort is required for some of your weaponskills.

If SE balanced the game entirely around people who just want to be able to hit buttons on the boss without worrying about potential interruptions to their rotation, the game wouldn't have made it past Heavensward. I'm convinced if they did make landing positionals more meaningful by giving them a serious damage buff, the complaints in this and other recent threads about them would barely change, because at the end of the day there's a lot of players who don't want to do them and don't want to feel "punished" for not doing them.

Yet that is what they are for pretty much all the melee classes but monk. Nice to hit. They account for such little dps. The SAM for example, the positional account for less than a percent of the dps, so small crit variation can and will completely hide it.

[ItMe]

Yet that is what they are for pretty much all the melee classes but monk. Nice to hit. They account for such little dps. The SAM for example, the positional account for less than a percent of the dps, so small crit variation can and will completely hide it.

Oh my god is it really that little?
Has SQEX been nerfing positionals all this time and I'd never noticed?
They reduced Protect's mitigation down to about 2% before fully phasing it out in Shadow Bringers.
I'm kind of alarming myself with this train of thought but should I/we consider the possibility we're losing positionals in 6.0?

[Dzian]

Oh my god is it really that little?
Has SQEX been nerfing positionals all this time and I'd never noticed?
They reduced Protect's mitigation down to about 2% before fully phasing it out in Shadow Bringers.
I'm kind of alarming myself with this train of thought but should I/we consider the possibility we're losing positionals in 6.0?

It's somewhere in the region of 0.5% on Samurai and Ninja. People have also said Dragoon is in the same boat but thats a job I havent touhced since 1.0 so I don't know about.

If your interested I mathed it out in a different thread. (Click links)
Samurai & Ninja

And if the same is indeed true for Dragoons then it's really not suprising so many people want to see them scrapped. At the very least on those 3 jobs.

[IruruCece]

Yet that is what they are for pretty much all the melee classes but monk. Nice to hit. They account for such little dps. The SAM for example, the positional account for less than a percent of the dps, so small crit variation can and will completely hide it.

Except you're wrong about Samurai's positional contributions yet again (by ignoring other people's posts, no less), because you're ignoring that landing positionals results in more Kenki, which results in more use of Kenki, either during burst phases or mixed in throughout their combos, which adds up to more than "just" "less than a percent" of our DPS.

If I could choose, every time, I would still have the Samurai who uses positionals to maximize their meter gain and use more of their OGCD skill than the Samurai who thinks they're ONLY "nice to hit", doesn't try to hit them at all, and then complains about them on the forums.

I'm hardly the best Samurai, I don't even raid for Savage/Ultimate, and I still try to hit those positionals whenever I can because I understand that they help me do that little extra bit of damage. If I'm helping the boss die that little bit faster, I'm helping contribute to the team that little bit more. It's not about my own numbers alone, there are 3 or 7 or 23 other players whose own time in the game is as valuable to them as mine is to myself.

In my mind, there are two types of selfish DPS. There's the Jobs that contribute little to others mechanically beyond hitting hard, and then there's the DPS player that slums it because they know someone else will pick up the slack and they want the game to conform to their preferences every patch. The game shouldn't be catering to or balanced entirely around the latter.

[Nothv13]

Except you're wrong about Samurai's positional contributions yet again (by ignoring other people's posts, no less), because you're ignoring that landing positionals results in more Kenki, which results in more use of Kenki, either during burst phases or mixed in throughout their combos, which adds up to more than "just" "less than a percent" of our DPS.

If I could choose, every time, I would still have the Samurai who uses positionals to maximize their meter gain and use more of their OGCD skill than the Samurai who thinks they're ONLY "nice to hit", doesn't try to hit them at all, and then complains about them on the forums.

I'm hardly the best Samurai, I don't even raid for Savage/Ultimate, and I still try to hit those positionals whenever I can because I understand that they help me do that little extra bit of damage. If I'm helping the boss die that little bit faster, I'm helping contribute to the team that little bit more. It's not about my own numbers alone, there are 3 or 7 or 23 other players whose own time in the game is as valuable to them as mine is to myself.

In my mind, there are two types of selfish DPS. There's the Jobs that contribute little to others mechanically beyond hitting hard, and then there's the DPS player that slums it because they know someone else will pick up the slack and they want the game to conform to their preferences every patch. The game shouldn't be catering to or balanced entirely around the latter.

Pretty sure in one of the other threads, someone mathed it out and it was a tiny percent

[ItMe]

Pretty sure in one of the other threads, someone mathed it out and it was a tiny percent

Do you remember which thread?

[IruruCece]

Pretty sure in one of the other threads, someone mathed it out and it was a tiny percent

That's great, then people who don't want to even try shouldn't feel persecuted by the Devs for purposefully playing the job worse than a non-Savage/Ultimate raider!