The 3-Strikes Policy - Is it really a good thing?

[Krotoan]

Yeah, a person should face punishment but to say that someone who has committed murder is not possible seems. If someone does change I do not think actions of the past after they did their punishment should follow a person. Just like in IRL once a person serves their time I do not think they should be forced to state they were ever locked up, or their sentences should be viewable through a background check. The government can have a record but as everyday people I do not think we should really know. They did their time being as they are saw fit to be free they should be viewed as everyone else not as a person with a negative label for the rest of their life.

As I mentioned I live by a simple view everything can be forgiven and made amends for. Life is too short to hold grudges and carry anger around. I also say this as someone who has been victim of some horrendous acts with lengthy legal battles as a child but that is just me. I get for many it is hard to let go. Do not get me wrong I still remember the horrible things done to me, but outside that it is water under the bridge.

In short I do not base my own view of forgiveness around the type of action or damage dealt so to speak.

Forgiveness is generally for the person who has been wronged, not for the one who metes out punishment. You can "forgive" someone who's harassed you all you like, but you're for some reason confusing the punishment with some sort of personal catharsis. The punishment for doing horrible things is not mitigated by the people who were wronged feeling forgiveness. If you murder someone, in some states where I live you get killed right back. Forgive it all you like but you are dead and that cannot be taken back.

Your view on this is incredibly naive. A police officer working on this principle would be just as likely to waive your parking ticket as you stabbing someone. "oh well, you only did it once, go ahead and take this warning". Severity of punishments being relative to the infractions is how many MANY systems of law work.

You confuse this falling off the record as some sort of after process that should be set on every single judgement when it's very clear that if someone does something that's clearly more harmful to everyone elses gaming experience they should be punished accordingly and that punishment should include never having that infraction falling off their record.

Even if we speak of merely personal affronts , constantly forgiving someone for say lying to you or cheating ON you just as easily as say forgiving someone for stepping on your toe accidentally is just .. well.. asking to be taken advantage of.
Then don't consider it "forgiveness" but the price of the action. The punishment as it were.


I'm always aghast at what people can possibly defend here.. but you've very much awestruck me with how nonsensical someones stances can be when they don't have to answer for anything they say.

[Awha]

Forgiveness is generally for the person who has been wronged, not for the one who metes out punishment. You can "forgive" someone who's harassed you all you like, but you're for some reason confusing the punishment with some sort of personal catharsis. The punishment for doing horrible things is not mitigated by the people who were wronged feeling forgiveness. If you murder someone, in some states where I live you get killed right back. Forgive it all you like but you are dead and that cannot be taken back.

Your view on this is incredibly naive. A police officer working on this principle would be just as likely to waive your parking ticket as you stabbing someone. "oh well, you only did it once, go ahead and take this warning". Severity of punishments being relative to the infractions is how many MANY systems of law work.

You confuse this falling off the record as some sort of after process that should be set on every single judgement when it's very clear that if someone does something that's clearly more harmful to everyone elses gaming experience they should be punished accordingly and that punishment should include never having that infraction falling off their record.

Even if we speak of merely personal affronts , constantly forgiving someone for say lying to you or cheating ON you just as easily as say forgiving someone for stepping on your toe accidentally is just .. well.. asking to be taken advantage of.
Then don't consider it "forgiveness" but the price of the action. The punishment as it were.


I'm always aghast at what people can possibly defend here.. but you've very much awestruck me with how nonsensical someones stances can be when they don't have to answer for anything they say.

I know the severity of a punishment is relative to the infraction, and I agree with that and never stated otherwise. Do not think I ever said that something should go without punishment. Though if implied as much I am sorry and was not my intent. My stance is once the punishment is done it should not follow a person. How is that not holding them accountable? They got in trouble had an action taken against their account. Once the punishment is served their past mistakes should not follow them.

End of the day my first comment in this thread was more so how people pick and choose what actions are considered tolerable mistakes and which are not is something I do not agree with. I we should be able to hold the same standard across the board. If we are agree people make mistakes and can change for one thing same should be viewed for others. By no means does that mean I think people should not be held accountable for what they say or do or get a get out of jail free card for their first infraction. I on the contrary I feel a first infraction should not be a warning but a temp suspension, though once the suspension is over it should not stay on their account forever.

Though yeah if someone does commit a murder and they serve their time and are released I do not think that should be public knowledge or follow them. Cause the reality is as people we stigmatize or marginalize people for past actions. They did their time and now want to try and do better, but sadly given how people view it is hard to move forward when you are constantly reminded about your past. I do not feel that is how we should view learning from ones mistake.

[Saefinn]

Forgiveness is generally for the person who has been wronged, not for the one who metes out punishment. You can "forgive" someone who's harassed you all you like, but you're for some reason confusing the punishment with some sort of personal catharsis. The punishment for doing horrible things is not mitigated by the people who were wronged feeling forgiveness. If you murder someone, in some states where I live you get killed right back. Forgive it all you like but you are dead and that cannot be taken back.

Your view on this is incredibly naive. A police officer working on this principle would be just as likely to waive your parking ticket as you stabbing someone. "oh well, you only did it once, go ahead and take this warning". Severity of punishments being relative to the infractions is how many MANY systems of law work.

You confuse this falling off the record as some sort of after process that should be set on every single judgement when it's very clear that if someone does something that's clearly more harmful to everyone elses gaming experience they should be punished accordingly and that punishment should include never having that infraction falling off their record.

Even if we speak of merely personal affronts , constantly forgiving someone for say lying to you or cheating ON you just as easily as say forgiving someone for stepping on your toe accidentally is just .. well.. asking to be taken advantage of.
Then don't consider it "forgiveness" but the price of the action. The punishment as it were.


I'm always aghast at what people can possibly defend here.. but you've very much awestruck me with how nonsensical someones stances can be when they don't have to answer for anything they say.

However, it's not law we're dealing with. Heck we could draw an alternative comparison and look at employment. Most places will clear any disciplinary actions taken against an employee after 6 months. It's really more a case of peace of mind, because a minor infraction could be all that does it to hang you over from 2 strikes over to 3 and you are indefinitely on that "what if I make a mistake once more?" over your head. Because technically speaking a simple "oh f***" breaks their profanity clause, somebody reports you and the GM decides to put a strike and that's it. You've learned from all your mistakes 7 years ago and it comes back to bite you.

When looking at it from a legal point of view, yeah, "can't do the time? Don't do the crime" fits. But I can't see argument for such an attitude existing in a video game service or for a community. It's basically going "our customer learned their lesson, years later they make one mistake, yes, lets force them to stop doing business with us even though their record has been great for years".

Having the strike on there temporarily is good to help curb misbehavior, if after a year they've not screwed up then it can be assumed they are making t he effort to stay within the game's rules.

If the rule breaking is more serious, then I can understand if it sticks. But if it's minor, it does seem harsh. If it's lots of minor ones in a short space of time, then yeah, that's indicative of somebody causing trouble. If it's minor ones stretched across a long period of time, this is people more likely making errors or mistakes

[Krotoan]

Though yeah if someone does commit a murder and they serve their time and are released I do not think that should be public knowledge or follow them. Cause the reality is as people we stigmatize or marginalize people for past actions. They did their time and now want to try and do better, but sadly given how people view it is hard to move forward when you are constantly reminded about your past. I do not feel that is how we should view learning from ones mistake.

Because someone who can murder, will possibly do it again. You don't want someone who possibly doesn't value human life working with people who are vulnerable. You shouldn't allow someone chances when they historically prove they squander them.
Yes someone who serves time deserves the chance to rehabilitate and redeem, however "clearing the record" of offenses is harmful to others around them. Forgiveness is fine, blindness is foolish.
The punishment for grievous infractions is the history and record following you. That's part of the deal. Intelligent judgement considers past actions, severity of infraction and length between offenses.

Thinking that blanket forgiveness is a good idea is all very spiritual and storybook nice.. but it's unrealistic. People repeat mistakes, have habits, and malfunctions. This is how humans work. Believing as you do is dangerous to yourself and others and lacks wisdom.

However, it's not law we're dealing with. Heck we could draw an alternative comparison and look at employment. Most places will clear any disciplinary actions taken against an employee after 6 months. It's really more a case of peace of mind, because a minor infraction could be all that does it to hang you over from 2 strikes over to 3 and you are indefinitely on that "what if I make a mistake once more?" over your head. Because technically speaking a simple "oh f***" breaks their profanity clause, somebody reports you and the GM decides to put a strike and that's it. You've learned from all your mistakes 7 years ago and it comes back to bite you.

When looking at it from a legal point of view, yeah, "can't do the time? Don't do the crime" fits. But I can't see argument for such an attitude existing in a video game service or for a community. It's basically going "our customer learned their lesson, years later they make one mistake, yes, lets force them to stop doing business with us even though their record has been great for years".

Having the strike on there temporarily is good to help curb misbehavior, if after a year they've not screwed up then it can be assumed they are making t he effort to stay within the game's rules.

If the rule breaking is more serious, then I can understand if it sticks. But if it's minor, it does seem harsh. If it's lots of minor ones in a short space of time, then yeah, that's indicative of somebody causing trouble. If it's minor ones stretched across a long period of time, this is people more likely making errors or mistakes

Please read my earlier replies and note that I SUPPORT minor infraction forgiveness. the person I'm replying to thinks that ALL infractions should be equal and fall off the record. They support the idea that someone who say harasses other players, cheats, or uses hateful speech should have their offenses fall off the same as someone who swears in a chat once. Their policy is "if one thing is forgivable they all have to be".

[kinglyonheart]

I don't think it's completely out of line to have "categories" of strikes.

Type A strikes are minor infractions. 3 type A strikes lead up to a type B strike
Type B strikes stay on your record for 6-12 months and are for repeated infractions or more severe infractions.
Type C strikes are for major infractions and remain on your record permanently.

Something along those lines (obviously just a concept and it would need refinement) would probably make players a lot more comfortable. Unilateral infractions on warnings doesn't quite feel right because someone being reported for saying "ah, (swear)" in a dungeon (which i think is ridiculous is breaking a rule anyway because we have a profanity filter) should not be equated to someone pointedly harassing another player with hatespeech, tbh

[Awha]

Because someone who can murder, will possibly do it again. You don't want someone who possibly doesn't value human life working with people who are vulnerable. You shouldn't allow someone chances when they historically prove they squander them.
Yes someone who serves time deserves the chance to rehabilitate and redeem, however "clearing the record" of offenses is harmful to others around them. Forgiveness is fine, blindness is foolish.
The punishment for grievous infractions is the history and record following you. That's part of the deal. Intelligent judgement considers past actions, severity of infraction and length between offenses.

Thinking that blanket forgiveness is a good idea is all very spiritual and storybook nice.. but it's unrealistic. People repeat mistakes, have habits, and malfunctions. This is how humans work. Believing as you do is dangerous to yourself and others and lacks wisdom.

Sure in the current system people are likely to repeat the mistakes of the past, because the reality is we do not allow them to really move past their mistakes. Personally I think it would be hard to move past something if you are always reminded of it. Having the capacity to do something does not mean they will do it, and I do not think we should base our stance around that assumption. Sure we have people that are serial offenders, but I do not think we should threat everyone as such.

Sure if we go based off the current data where we have people that go to prison then are released to do the same action it does not look good. Though from my view I say we should look why did they repeat the action, I feel a lot of has to deal with the fact that the system often puts them back in the same desperate situation that caused them to lead to their first offense. The person may be willing to change, but simply unable to advance due to the nature of the fact they their desire of change does not reflect their options to change.

Get out of prison work a dead end job since getting employment is rough, struggling to make ends meat because you are barely making a livable wage forced to work a second job which leads etc . . . all these stressors I feel cause a person to feel that same sense of hopelessness that may have lead to lapse in judgement in the first place. Do not get me wrong I do think some people in this world are just broken so to speak, but I do not think that is the case for everyone and I do feel people if given the proper chance can and will learn from their mistakes. It is just about giving the person the opportunity after they served their punishment.

In end though when it comes to my own forgiveness if someone wants to take advantage of my kindness and view it is weakness cool. That is on them, though please do not mistake my view as I will let someone walk all over me repeatedly. I just feel the current system does not do much to allow the person the the proper means to learn from their own actions thus they are easily repeatable. Just like I do not agree with warnings since people view them as a one time pass. I think we should not have warnings at all even in our legal system.

In end I think it is unfair, unreasonable, and navie to expect a different outcome if you literary put the person in the same exact situation they were in prior to the offense. So sure I would be for a fair three strike system do x amount of things in y time frame you are out or if you do not do negative actions for y amount of time we will drop the negative action. Though I do not think it would be fair to have that system but pick and choose what action is forgettable or not.

[Saefinn]

Please read my earlier replies and note that I SUPPORT minor infraction forgiveness. the person I'm replying to thinks that ALL infractions should be equal and fall off the record. They support the idea that someone who say harasses other players, cheats, or uses hateful speech should have their offenses fall off the same as someone who swears in a chat once. Their policy is "if one thing is forgivable they all have to be".

Apologies, I must have missed it. Then yes, I agree.

If I find I don't like somebody and call them a "w******r" out of frustration is a lot more forgivable than say, stalking and harassing them to make them feel uncomfortable or causing them distress. The latter of which I have seen somebody do...and they should be treated much more seriously than the person who called them a bad name. Sure, both are in the wrong to do it, one is a lot worse than the other. Sure the stalkery person may learn their lesson, but I expect they will want to keep that strike if they slip back into similar sort of behaviour and act on it. They can't even be sure you've stopped this behaviour because it might have just gone unreported.

[Krotoan]

Sure in the current system people are likely to repeat the mistakes of the past, because the reality is we do not allow them to really move past their mistakes. Personally I think it would be hard to move past something if you are always reminded of it. Having the capacity to do something does not mean they will do it, and I do not think we should base our stance around that assumption. Sure we have people that are serial offenders, but I do not think we should threat everyone as such.

Sure if we go based off the current data where we have people that go to prison then are released to do the same action it does not look good. Though from my view I say we should look why did they repeat the action, I feel a lot of has to deal with the fact that the system often puts them back in the same desperate situation that caused them to lead to their first offense. The person may be willing to change, but simply unable to advance due to the nature of the fact they their desire of change does not reflect their options to change. Get out of prison work a dead end job since getting employment is rough, struggling to make ends meat because you are barely making a livable wage forced to work a second job which leads etc . . . all these stressors I feel cause a person to feel that same sense of hopelessness that may have lead to lapse in judgement in the first place. Do not get me wrong I do think some people in this world are just broken so to speak, but I do not think that is the case for everyone and I do feel people if given the proper chance can and will learn from their mistakes. It is just about giving the person the opportunity after they served their punishment.

In end though when it comes to my own forgiveness if someone wants to take advantage of my kindness and view it is weakness cool. That is on them, though please do not mistake my view as I will let someone walk all over me repeatedly. I just feel the current system does not do much to allow the person the the proper means to learn from their own actions thus they are easily repeatable. Just like I do not agree with warnings since people view them as a one time pass. I think we should not have warnings at all even in our legal system.

In end I think it is unfair, unreasonable, and navie to expect a different outcome if you literary put the person in the same exact situation they were in prior to the offense

.

You are taking the prison system metaphor and hypothetical too far. This is a game. Nobody knows your past infractions in game. This is technically a "perfect" system in which nobody but the judges know your history and it only comes into question when you relapse. Your re-integration into the system has no lingering or visible marks that others you interact with in anything relevant to the game can see or access.

It would only be a worry for those who have "heavy" strikes on their record, as it should be. Do not recommit. Do not lapse. REMEMBER that this is your last chance.

Apologies, I must have missed it. Then yes, I agree.

If I find I don't like somebody and call them a "w******r" out of frustration is a lot more forgivable than say, stalking and harassing them to make them feel uncomfortable or causing them distress. The latter of which I have seen somebody do...and they should be treated much more seriously than the person who called them a bad name. Sure, both are in the wrong to do it, one is a lot worse than the other. Sure the stalkery person may learn their lesson, but I expect they will want to keep that strike if they slip back into similar sort of behaviour and act on it. They can't even be sure you've stopped this behaviour because it might have just gone unreported.

Thank you for going back. I know there's a lot to sift through as I can be verbose. As you say.. exactly as I feel, infractions should have weight and that weight should determine both punishment and permanence.

[TurtlesAWD]

I think you'd have trouble justifying the 3 strike system even if they were handed out in a completely consistent way by a completely fair and uniform arbiter, but this couldn't be the case realistically, and the discussion of the week has basically highlighted that.

Ultimately the current system only serves to have a chilling effect on in-game socalization. Never say anything to anybody, you never know who is listening and how they might take it, even for a conversation they're not a part of. Just use discord.

[TurtlesAWD]

It would only be a worry for those who have "heavy" strikes on their record, as it should be. Do not recommit. Do not lapse. REMEMBER that this is your last chance.

You're not given information on what the report was for though so unless you've said approximately 1 thing in game ever, good luck figuring out what you're not supposed to do. Changes of behavior require specifics and consistency. Otherwise you just teach people how to be toxic the "right" way.