FF14 devs just keep doing your thing because my god

[linayar]

Not to be rude but it's because WoW's savage is mythic. Normal is meme tier, heroic is for the casuals, and mythic is for statics.

It's fascinating to me as an outsider seeing different people try to make comparisons, and I suspect sometimes from people who are also outsiders like me or only doing one of them and then guessing on the other. That said, I'm not making any judgment on your own comparison because I don't really know the answer myself, but I have seen different comparisons made.

From what I can tell/remember, I do believe that, in the current tier, where Savage and Normal/Heroic came out in the same week, Savage and Heroic world first took around similar length of time from their respective release. I don't know exactly what can be concluded from that except that difficulty between WoW and FFXIV may not be as simple as lining up different difficulty tiers.

[LisSquid]

It's fascinating to me as an outsider seeing different people try to make comparisons, and I suspect sometimes from people who are also outsiders like me or only doing one of them and then guessing on the other. That said, I'm not making any judgment on your own comparison because I don't really know the answer myself, but I have seen different comparisons made.

From what I can tell/remember, I do believe that, in the current tier, where Savage and Normal/Heroic came out in the same week, Savage and Heroic world first took around similar length of time from their respective release. I don't know exactly what can be concluded from that except that difficulty between WoW and FFXIV may not be as simple as lining up different difficulty tiers.

Oh no I wasn't saying one was more difficult than the other. I was just saying that to accurately compare you have to put highest end against highest end. I wouldn't compare normal raids in 14 to LFR, for instance, as LFR is itself a totally different beast.

[Penthea]

Honestly I believe it's more with how gaming has evolved and the impact the internet has than just addons. In the past raid bosses with 3 mechanics worked fine because we were all essentially nubs (in a nice way). Very few people read guides and information was harder to come by, you'd just stumble through, put on whatever gear you scraped together and it was plenty because everyone else was in a similar boat.

I agree I just didn't want to dive too much in this particular part of the subject because frankly my post was already an essay without even getting in to that. Another thing to add to what you have said is very advanced boss design would have been too punishing back in the early days of WoW because it was common to disconnect or lag due to the game and player pcs not being as good at handling such a large number of things happening as well as internet connections in general not being anywhere near as powerful as they are now. Old WoW bosses were a product of their time for many reasons. I just focused mostly on the add-ons aspect as this was directly related to the question I was answering.

Even FF14's bosses, with no addons, are probably even more mechanically complex than WoW's at endgame. I've seen WoW heroic raid bosses summed up in 5-6 lines where Savage bosses are usually several pages.

The biggest difference between WoW and FFXIV high end raiding is the size of the team. In WoW's mythic (what used to be called heroic) you have 20 people, but you only have 8 in FFXIV's savage. While the mechanics of some FFXIV bosses can be more complex sometimes, it doesn't change the fact that managing 20 people is significantly more work than managing only 8.

And this is partially why WoW high end raiders rely so heavily on add-ons. Add-ons can quite significantly reduce the complication and work load of coordinating 20 people. They can relay information better than a human ever could, and without clogging up voice chat.

In one way it has positive sides too. I personally find bosses with a whole range of mechanics and factors to watch out for a lot more interesting than 3 mechanic target dummies. Once you've had a taste of advanced raiding and in-depth strategizing, it's hard to go back to simplistic gameplay.

Oh man I completely understand this. I quit hardcore raiding for a number of reasons but none of them were because I grew tired of the challenge of the content. That alone is what kept me raiding in WoW for so long despite enduring a lot of other things that I grew to hate.

FFXIV has become the ideal for me. I no longer raid hardcore and can never do so again due to developing a disability (it affects the use of my hands), but you don't need to be anywhere near hardcore in FFXIV to clear a tier. My team cleared the last two Eden tiers on only four hours of raiding per week. Clearing a tier on only that in WoW would be a difficult goal to say the least because of the huge number of raid bosses per tier. WoW typically has 9 to 14 bosses per tier, FFXIV only has 4. Maybe 5 if you include ultimate if there is one in the tier.

In FFXIV I can still scratch the itch I get to experience something challenging, but without sacrificing so much time to do it and without risking putting myself in physical pain by trying to do more than my body can currently handle. In WoW I would have to accept the fact that I could never do challenging raid content again. Unsurprisingly I am so thankful for how raiding is developed in FFXIV. It's more accessible than WoW's raiding due to needing a smaller time commitment.

And as a disclaimer in case anyone looks us up in fflogs: we are very late starting this tier due to two in our team being unavailable for the start of the tier. We started savage only last week.

[Garet]

Hope you get well soon. I too recently have been diagnosed with a worsening Ankylosing Spondylitis and Essential Tremors on my hands that makes gaming not what it used to be. And FFXIV having a more relaxed and social feature to its game is a big plus for me.

Like you the challenge of mythic dungeons and raids in WoW is indeed satisfying but can be hard now. I am lucky to be in a bit of a chill group of raiders at the moment hence can raid a bit but I am more of a back up and I do not mind it

[Penthea]

Hope you get well soon. I too recently have been diagnosed with a worsening Ankylosing Spondylitis and Essential Tremors on my hands that makes gaming not what it used to be. And FFXIV having a more relaxed and social feature to its game is a big plus for me.

Thank you. Therapy can work for what I have but it has mixed results, and given there's a pandemic now it's not an option I can access yet. However things improved when I learned to deal with my new limitations. Figuring out the point of when something becomes too much improved things a lot for me. I'm sorry to read that you can relate to my situation, it's not something I'd wish on anyone. I'm glad that FFXIV has content that you can still enjoy despite your difficulties. During the time when the pain in my hands was at its worst I could still enjoy DoL and DoH, and furnishing my house, so I consider myself lucky to have found FFXIV when I did. It kept me sane. Had I stayed in WoW my options for what I could do at the time would have been slim at best considering combat was something I struggled with back then.

I hope your condition will also improve soon.

Like you the challenge of mythic dungeons and raids in WoW is indeed satisfying but can be hard now. I am lucky to be in a bit of a chill group of raiders at the moment hence can raid a bit but I am more of a back up and I do not mind it

I'm happy that you found some good peeps who allow you to still enjoy raiding

[Ralph2449]

Come on, you speak as if in Wow you cannot be casual, we are talking about a game that has an absurd amount of achievements, secret achievements in the world, treasures, reputations and mounts.

For the rest, you talk about Ego as if in this game there was no go when we have people who buy kills for 1000 dollars of an Ultimate and then show the weapon to everyone and give lessons on how to be a good player like a certain clown in Excalibur.?

Depends on what you mean by casual, if you see casual as someone who doesnt touch "hard" content and does 5 year old content then yeah, you can say WoW isnt terribad for casuals but then you can say any game that has lasted for years is a great casual game, but for people who enjoy playing a game casually as an mmorpg, like gear progression and current content and a bit of everything like myself, WoW treats casuals with absolute disdain and the community is even worse in their treatment of casuals which they see as "inferior" because all that matters to fragile egos is "video game achievements".
Gear progression has pretty much been gutted from casual content because high end raider/streamers complained they were "forced" to play the rest of the game instead of raid log, we got the last difficulty of a deep dungeon that takes 2 hours and gives nothing more than a mount to make dailies faster, 0 gear rewards or even any form of appearance, they spend a ton of effort making that entire thing but because their high end tryhards complained they didnt know what rewards to put so they put nothing.


And yeah there are always gamers TM with fragile egos that obsess over high end content in all games, the issue is WoW is heavily focusing on that type of unhealthy mentality and with their changes throughout the years has lead to a community full of obnoxious elitists, tryhards and meta slaves that dont play a game as a video game, it is almost like a job they hate but they do it because their self worth depends on it, I play an mmorpg as a video game, not something to be taken seriously, so even if I am able to do mythic raids in WoW the community is so bad I simply am not gonna touch even self proclaimed "casual mythic" guilds, and pugging has become even worse with the amount of tryhards only wanting meta combs and tanks/healers never joining your groups unless you have a huge IO score you can only get by somehow doing all dungeons at a high level, good luck pugging all those unless you enjoy spending hours waiting to form a group only to disband halfway into the dungeon.

Of course that also works for blizzard because the token price has remained low since the launch of the Xpac meaning there's a huge supply of tokens from people buying them, and I am guessing all that irl money bought gold goes directly to the hundreds of server and off server boosters that fill trade these days.

[Jojoya]

Not to be rude but it's because WoW's savage is mythic. Normal is meme tier, heroic is for the casuals, and mythic is for statics.

Depends on when someone played WoW. Until end of MoP, Heroic was the Savage equivalent.

[Puremallace]

Depends on when someone played WoW. Until end of MoP, Heroic was the Savage equivalent.

I'm old enough to remember when Heroic meant you needed a coordinated group and used CC to take down trash packs much less bosses.

[KenXSSS]

XIV is a MMO whether you like it or not lmao

You compared WoW and XIV in a way that implied that, in contrast to WoW, XIV is not a MMO, which is blatantly false, then that XIV is story first MMO second which is a terrible excuse people use to justify their lack of care towards how they treat other players in the game.

It is BOTH a FF game AND a theme park MMORPG, not one before the other. Saying that it's "story first" is incredibly dismissive of everything else the devs put work towards, especially battle content which is pretty extensive. The story is just some of the massive amount of CONTENT offered by the game whereas MMORPG is the genre the game falls into.

If you wanted a serious discussion, you would not be using an alt.

And here you reveal to everybody that you haven't played modern World of Warcraft. Modern WoW is more of a single player game than FFXIV, considering you can play the entire game solo without ever having to play with other people. At least FFXIV has compulsory dungeoning, WoW doesn't even have that. It's a single player game without a story.

Now Classic WoW was definitely a multiplayer game but modern WoW has long since abandoned those game designs.

EDIT: And you have played modern WoW then your post is just deceptive. Why is a game that you can play solo, don't have to dungeon, don't have to raid, and don't have to interact with anybody at all EVER designed as an MMO first?

Also while WoW has a more convenient transmog SYSTEM, the transmog options are severely lacking. Not only is there a lack of variety, half the options look painted on and half are very low resolution and can be jarring when mixing and matching. Transmog/Glamour is something I convincingly give to FFXIV hands down considering Blizzard obviously doesn't care about transmog options.

I have 5 level 60's in SL, I think the one who hasn't played WoW is you. You can get 1-60 in Classic via Solo Mage Grinding or even questing solo and you can skip Raiding early on with green drops and crafting. In Modern you can 1-60 with Solo Questing, I don't see your point bruh

[ZedxKayn]

If you wanted a serious discussion, you would not be using an alt.

If you wanted a serious discussion, you wouldn't be dismissing other's points through ad hominems.
Give me undeniable proof that I am someone's alt or tell me what genre did SE list FFXIV as in their own online store.