Delete Clemency and Vercure

[Curisu]

I can not count the amount of times I saved a group in any normal difficulty instance with my clemency.

For example, at the beginning of shb I had to solo heal in every single leveling dungeon at least once because the healer died.

It is a nice utility tool to save someone or even help the healer to get a fresh rezzed player back to full HP to save him from the next AOE attack.

[kaynide]

At the end of the day, the general content that the majority of players will complete is just not meant to be that challenging when compared to the tighter, less forgiving endgame stuff like whatever current Savage/Ultimate is going on.

So at the end of the day it's really simple:

Tank-
Are you holding the mobs? You're doing it right.
Are you adding to the DPS/healing to give other players more options? Even better.

DPS-
Are you killing the mobs in a reasonable amount of time? Are you making it easy for your healer to heal and tank to tank? Then you are also doing it right.
Are you able to help out/toss a cure or pull a stray mob to the tank when an opportunity arises? Better!

Healer-
Is everyone alive and confidently tackling mobs? Yep. Doing it right.
Are you able to add extra DPS because everyone's good to go (either by your work or their own?) Better.

Complicated version:
It's beneficial for jobs to be able to do things outside of their typical wheelhouse.
Ex: I believe in an AOE situation a WHM's DPS is higher than PLD, so theoretically it's better for the tank to self-heal if possible while whm HOLY spams, so long as the PLD can keep hate.

[EirolOcarrol]

It doesn't bother me as a Healer when someone uses these, and when I am not playing a Healer class/job, I am so thankful to have a Healing ability available.

I take it to mean that they were uncomfortable where their HP level was at, and didn't want to take any chances. Which is understandable, I'm happy that they're simply safe and I don't have to revive anyone.
If we're still clearing the dungeons and getting rewarded, and everyone is okay, than I don't mind any minor setbacks. Losing a few frames or seconds of time though, doesn't matter much to me, as I'm not going for some kind of speedrun record. If I were, I'd probably make a static group for that instance and try to work towards a speedrun with them through coordination.

A tiny, tiny bit of extra DPS lost from a Paladin using Clemency is fairly insignificant. And if I were in hard dungeons like Savage or Ultimate, it would be good to be in a "static" group and coordinate via Voice Chat, like Discord, if possible.


I find these to be fairly insignificant quibbles in the grand scheme of things. But then, I'm a person who has never been 'hardcore' about gameplay, especially in role playing games. To me, the test of what makes them good is how well they are at achieving role playing. And I've also never been someone who has cared particularly much for the 'trinity' of tank, healer, and DPS. I think MMORPGs would be more fun if we left that sort of system behind. I don't see this sort of system come into play in other roleplaying games, Cecil is a good tank in Final Fantasy IV, and Rosa is a good healer. But every character still does a little bit of everything.

I'm not sure why people care so much about splitting hairs about DPS efficiency of a tank or DPS healing if everyone is clearing the dungeon, nobody is getting KO'd a lot, and the bosses aren't enraging. Losing an extra couple of seconds to inefficient DPS, especially in a role playing game, shouldn't be the end of the world.

If people are all pushing themselves to think in such a metagaming fashion, I think they're forgetting what role playing games are about. The genre formed to make a group of players play a board game that made them feel like they were inside Lord of the Rings. And living out their own Lord of the Rings fantasy with a group of friends. That's how we got the original role playing game, Dungeons and Dragons, from people who wanted to bring the Lord of the Rings experience to board gaming.

If you're in a Dungeons and Dragons campaign with a group of friends, are you miffed enough that your friend healed themselves, when you could have healed them, or are you just happy that no one died in the dungeon? Well, if you have a Good moral alignment, you're probably just happy that everyone made it out of the dungeon alive.


Furthermore, if you play with random people, you're going to get random behaviours. And while people are expected to at least try. One can't expect everyone to be a hardcore speedrunner who gets a top percentage of DPS. Which saves a few mere seconds of playtime. If you care that much about saving an extra 20 seconds of dungeon time from efficient DPS, you should form statics and coordinate with people. This is why Discord exists.

Losing Clemency and Vercure only serves to make Paladin and Red Mage weaker, and less interesting.

[Absurdity]

Ex: I believe in an AOE situation a WHM's DPS is higher than PLD, so theoretically it's better for the tank to self-heal if possible while whm HOLY spams, so long as the PLD can keep hate.

Not really. This is only the case of the Paladin uses nothing but their basic 2 aoe combos.

Let's compare potencies, for the sake of making things easier we have both jobs at 2.5 seconds GCD (the base GCD) and we compare 60 seconds of sustained aoe.

60 seconds allow for 24 casts at 2.5 seconds GCD.

WHM:

24 casts of Holy at 140 potency each ends up at 3360 potency

PLD:

24 casts allows for 12 casts of both Total Eclipse and Prominence for a total of 4080 potency

Now what if we added cooldowns, namely Presence of Mind for WHM and both FoF and Requiescat for PLD.

WHM:

PoM reduces the GCD from 2.5 down to 2 seconds for 15 seconds which allows for 2 extra Holy casts within those 60 seconds for a total of 3640 potency.

PLD:

25 seconds of FoF allows for 5 casts of Total Eclipse and Prominence each at +25% physical damage, since I'm not one of the theorycrafting people I just assume those 25% would apply to the potency, so we end up with a total of 2125 potency in those 25 seconds.

Next is Requiescat, 12 seconds of +50% potency on magic damage, allowing us to do 4x Holy Circle with 375 potency and 1x Confiteor with 1200 potency (I'm honestly not sure if the 50% actually apply to Confiteor since we can't test it without the buff) for 2700 potency combined.

We have used a total of 15 GCDs so far, leaving us with 9 more GCDs within those 60 seconds, or 5x Total Eclipse and 4x Prominence for a total of 1480 potency.

This adds up to 6305 potency in total within those 60 seconds.


This is where it gets more interesting. Magic potency is significantly higher than physical potency in terms of how much damage they do.
So I tested both jobs for 60 seconds.



Let's just say without cooldowns WHM is ahead, due to magic potency simply doing more damage, but with cooldowns PLD is quite a bit ahead of WHM.


This test was done with basically BiS WHM gear from last tier and suboptimal BiS PLD gear from last tier. 1480 Direct Hit on WHM and 0 Direct Hit on PLD.


The conclusion is simple. Since you can easily keep the Paladin alive on a WHM without losing much uptime on Holy there is no reason to have the Paladin heal themselves. But should they delete Clemency as an emergency tool for PLD? NO.

[ReiMakoto]

Not really. This is only the case of the Paladin uses nothing but their basic 2 aoe combos.

Let's compare potencies, for the sake of making things easier we have both jobs at 2.5 seconds GCD (the base GCD) and we compare 60 seconds of sustained aoe.

60 seconds allow for 24 casts at 2.5 seconds GCD.

WHM:

24 casts of Holy at 140 potency each ends up at 3360 potency

PLD:

24 casts allows for 12 casts of both Total Eclipse and Prominence for a total of 4080 potency

Now what if we added cooldowns, namely Presence of Mind for WHM and both FoF and Requiescat for PLD.

WHM:

PoM reduces the GCD from 2.5 down to 2 seconds for 15 seconds which allows for 2 extra Holy casts within those 60 seconds for a total of 3640 potency.

PLD:

25 seconds of FoF allows for 5 casts of Total Eclipse and Prominence each at +25% physical damage, since I'm not one of the theorycrafting people I just assume those 25% would apply to the potency, so we end up with a total of 2125 potency in those 25 seconds.

Next is Requiescat, 12 seconds of +50% potency on magic damage, allowing us to do 4x Holy Circle with 375 potency and 1x Confiteor with 1200 potency (I'm honestly not sure if the 50% actually apply to Confiteor since we can't test it without the buff) for 2700 potency combined.

We have used a total of 15 GCDs so far, leaving us with 9 more GCDs within those 60 seconds, or 5x Total Eclipse and 4x Prominence for a total of 1480 potency.

This adds up to 6305 potency in total within those 60 seconds.


This is where it gets more interesting. Magic potency is significantly higher than physical potency in terms of how much damage they do.
So I tested both jobs for 60 seconds.



Let's just say without cooldowns WHM is ahead, due to magic potency simply doing more damage, but with cooldowns PLD is quite a bit ahead of WHM.


This test was done with basically BiS WHM gear from last tier and suboptimal BiS PLD gear from last tier. 1480 Direct Hit on WHM and 0 Direct Hit on PLD.


The conclusion is simple. Since you can easily keep the Paladin alive on a WHM without losing much uptime on Holy there is no reason to have the Paladin heal themselves. But should they delete Clemency as an emergency tool for PLD? NO.

This is a very useless comparison, you cannot compare potency between different jobs and you especially cannot compare potency between tanks and other classes. Reason why you especialy canot compare between tanks and other classes is because tanks scale very differently to other classes ( https://www.akhmorning.com/allagan-s...ons/#lv-80-fap ) in their damage formula. Because of this tank potency compared to the actual damage they deal is very different when compared to other classes.


All of this is utterly pointless in general however, there honestly shouldnt even be a reason to use a clemency or any other gcd heal in an dungeon, other than afflatus skills or maybe a regen.

[Absurdity]

That's what I mentioned in the last part and why I tested both jobs myself. Because I know that Tank damage scales differently, as does magic potency compared to physical potency. If that weren't the case pld would've been ahead even without cooldowns, which is not what actually happens.


Regardless of how tanks and healers damage scales, paladin still comes out on top in sustained aoe dps if you use any dps cooldowns but as already said, it makes no sense to have the paladin waste GCDs on Clemency in the first place since you can easily heal the damage without sacrificing much of your dps (and none of the paladin's).

[Goji1639]

50% isn't even that low, if we're being honest. You're in no danger whatsoever even doing super pulls. At least, assuming you have proper mitigation rolling. Furthermore, getting value out of Bene is huge for healers who typically do a massive amount of damage in large enough pulls. For reference sake, it'll take 2-3 Cure II/Solaces to make up the loss of using Bene at 50%. Depending on the dungeon, of course.

Nevertheless, I'm not going to be miffed if you want to spam Clemency. But if I see a Paladin start doing that, I pretty much ignore them completely.

As I said originally, if my health goes below 50 I'll generally give it a few seconds; enough time to finish your Holy cast or whatever, but from there if the OCD heals don't start I will use Clemency to keep myself at least at 50. Acting like you have to stretch Bene further than that to maintain your pace in a normal dungeon is just silly; at that point you're just trying to show off, and I say it's up to the tank whether or not he wants to put up with that or just start healing for you.

I honestly wish all tanks had an option to take the reigns on healing like that.

[SturmChurro]

As I said originally, if my health goes below 50 I'll generally give it a few seconds; enough time to finish your Holy cast or whatever, but from there if the OCD heals don't start I will use Clemency to keep myself at least at 50. Acting like you have to stretch Bene further than that to maintain your pace in a normal dungeon is just silly; at that point you're just trying to show off, and I say it's up to the tank whether or not he wants to put up with that or just start healing for you.

I honestly wish all tanks had an option to take the reigns on healing like that.

50% is WAY too high for me to bother.

Had to tank a dungeon, got queue as I posted this, so I couldn't finish thought.

Let me explain, we are talking about dungeons here, right? Unless you aren't using your cds, 50% is nothing. I can heal that very quickly, very easily. There is no need to start using clemency.

[Goji1639]

50% is WAY too high for me to bother.

That's fine. I don't mind healing for you.

The only issue here is that apparently some Healers do mind when classes like PLD and RDM decide to take over healing when the healer can't be bothered.

[Curisu]

I honestly wish all tanks had an option to take the reigns on healing like that.

The shb expert dungeons are not so hard that there would be the need to consider a panic clemency at 50% hp.
By then you should have about 90k HP left and that is enough to survive 3-4 more GCDs and by then the pull could be dead.

There is also passive heals that the healer is going to use to keep you alive until the pull is dead.

Also, when I'm healing then I let the tank often drop low, not because I want to show off but because it's just more efficient to not overheal someone.