FF14 is not made for hardcore players.

[aCrowe]

Nope it is not. Muscle memory will not work as a healer, you need to adapt to the situation. Granted in today's dungeon w/o Cleric Stance, there isn'T much to adapt to and also no risk by going into DPS mode.

You said it yourself. And just to make things easier for healers. You can literally make a flowchart in your mind of what do to do when.

My main point is that community standards are subjective and flexible. Every player has differing ones.
It is indeed rare that a tank pulls single groups or that a healer does not DPS at all. So rare that I almost never encounter it anymore.

There was one thing that I don't think makes sense however. You said in a previous post that everyone can do the bare minimum and still clear. Well yes, and no. Dungeon bosses do not have enrages, the only thing holding you to account is the dungeon timer. Let's be honest though, the dungeon timer is way too long to be considered the time it needs to take to clear the dungeon. Bosses will keep repeating itself over and over. There are dungeons where you can do it quick and without a healer. Does that mean a healer has done their job and deserves the clear on the dungeon for doing absolutely nothing? Of course not because there is a standard regardless. The standard casuals have are lower than their skill level, and the same works for raiders. This means that there should be some middle ground in which can be accepted by everyone. There is this fight of white knighting the people who are doing terribly in the dungeon and excuses and blah blah blah, but in reality, they do not meet that middle ground and thus a fus is going to be had no matter what situation there is. That means that there needs to be a set standard in someway or fashion. I'm sure SE can easily just make a little single player dungeon thing that teaches healers to use dps abilities between healing, and tanks to use cooldowns on pacts. Give a neat little glamour piece and the everyone will have a set standard.

Healers: Have a time limit that need to keep party alive and also be able to kill the mob/group of mobs. (The ARR job stories actually teach this, but idk why a lot of people still think otherwise is the right way.)
Tanks: Have a survival time limit that can easily be done by using cds.

I'm gonna be honest, I have looked at your logs as a player in your dungeon runs and you do fine.(I don't care if this gets reported, I'm here to just state facts to help a situation in a middle ground. There is no flame involved once so ever here.) Now take someone who does a third/half of what you do, and that is the people who we complain about. DPS too. There was some of your runs where you did more damage on a healer than a dps did. Is this really acceptable?

[aCrowe]

Because dungeon is designed to be clearable by first timers, often even without needing to wipe. If you don't want to deal with inexperienced people, you should find people with experience to play with and don't dictate that random players have to be experienced in order to queue.

Yes, but you're telling me you're going to go into expert dungeons, first time as a tank? That's literally impossible because A) You had to level it in some form of way in dungeon runs. B) If you have tanxiety, you should probably play something you're more comfortable on to ensure that the run goes smoothly. C) Why does someone play something they aren't comfortable on in their first time in the highest lvl dungeon. I can understand leveling dungeons because you are learning there, but you should not queue as a tank your first time when you are not comfortable with it. D) Why do I have to find people when I'm benefiting others by bringing a good source of damage on whatever job I play? And while I give, I would want to receive a mediocre level of play in return. Now I want to give you an analogy of a real life scenario. There are 2 lines, one who struggles doing their job, and the other who is does their job correctly? Which line do you go for? And think about it, do you want to risk time and money wasted because of people's mistakes, or do you want things to be done correctly the first time you come in? Of course, you want the one with the more experience to handle your stuff. So how does this apply to FFXIV? Well, if you don't know a job or aren't comfortable on it because you did not hit a dummy or you haven't looked up any guides, then you are going to be the sole source as to why the dungeon is slower and ruin other people's experience because we 'the co-workers' have to pick up the slack from you because you decided that you didn't want to learn the job properly. I will say this once again, time, effort and all that is entirely MINIMAL of what we're asking. It will save you time and enjoyment in the long run, and people around you are going to enjoy playing with you more? Why do people not decide to take the win-win scenario? Why do people think it's fine to be playing beyond sub-par and then have the right to complain about the people who are far exceeding expectations? This questions I have yet to find a plausible excuse. Just take the win-win, invest minimal time in looking at a guide, and there you will never hear complaints from us or you have to complain either. We suffer because of your constraints that you put on yourself. Not the other way around.

(When I mean you, your, I mean the person who is performing very badly, not you in particular.)

[DPZ2]

Yes, but you're telling me you're going to go into expert dungeons ... I will say this once again, time, effort and all that is entirely MINIMAL of what we're asking. ... Why do people think it's fine to be playing beyond sub-par and then have the right to complain about the people who are far exceeding expectations?

So, are we talking about only Expert and Savage content here? Because I have not, in the last 6 years, run across someone in a normal instance who I would consider 'sub-par'.

(And how, precisely, to you measure "playing beyond sub-par"?)

[Granyala]

There was one thing that I don't think makes sense however. You said in a previous post that everyone can do the bare minimum and still clear. Well yes, and no. Dungeon bosses do not have enrages, the only thing holding you to account is the dungeon timer.

I'm gonna be honest, I have looked at your logs as a player in your dungeon runs and you do fine.(I don't care if this gets reported, I'm here to just state facts to help a situation in a middle ground. There is no flame involved once so ever here.) Now take someone who does a third/half of what you do, and that is the people who we complain about. DPS too. There was some of your runs where you did more damage on a healer than a dps did. Is this really acceptable?

Haha. yeah imagine a dungeon taking 90(?) minutes... people would quarter, tar, feather and kill the one responsible, just to make sure it stays dead and never queues again. I agree that the dungeon timer is ridiculously long, to the point of being impractical as a standard.
Eeek a creepy stalker Lalafell waaah!

Thanks for the kind words though, I do always try my best. God knows I am not a hardcore gamer. As for me sometimes doing more DPS than a DPS when playing white mage: yeah it certainly isn't ideal but I won't draw arbitrary lines in the sand about who deserved the kill / loot and who does not. Keep in mind though, I generally parse when running with buddies and for us it's a sport to see how much we can do. (you should hear me ranting in TS when gimpy randoms force me to heal/rez )
I doubt most people do that when running a 24man dungeon. Most people probably chill because they know crap dies anyway.

[Veis_Alveare]

So, are we talking about only Expert and Savage content here? Because I have not, in the last 6 years, run across someone in a normal instance who I would consider 'sub-par'.

(And how, precisely, to you measure "playing beyond sub-par"?)

By the fact that they do damage reminiscent of past expansions rather than the current one even when they're level capped and in decent gear.

Just because you're fine with that doesn't mean other people should be.

[linayar]

Yes, but you're telling me you're going to go into expert dungeons, first time as a tank? That's literally impossible because A) You had to level it in some form of way in dungeon runs. B) If you have tanxiety, you should probably play something you're more comfortable on to ensure that the run goes smoothly. C) Why does someone play something they aren't comfortable on in their first time in the highest lvl dungeon. I can understand leveling dungeons because you are learning there, but you should not queue as a tank your first time when you are not comfortable with it. D) Why do I have to find people when I'm benefiting others by bringing a good source of damage on whatever job I play? And while I give, I would want to receive a mediocre level of play in return. Now I want to give you an analogy of a real life scenario. There are 2 lines, one who struggles doing their job, and the other who is does their job correctly? Which line do you go for? And think about it, do you want to risk time and money wasted because of people's mistakes, or do you want things to be done correctly the first time you come in? Of course, you want the one with the more experience to handle your stuff. So how does this apply to FFXIV? Well, if you don't know a job or aren't comfortable on it because you did not hit a dummy or you haven't looked up any guides, then you are going to be the sole source as to why the dungeon is slower and ruin other people's experience because we 'the co-workers' have to pick up the slack from you because you decided that you didn't want to learn the job properly. I will say this once again, time, effort and all that is entirely MINIMAL of what we're asking. It will save you time and enjoyment in the long run, and people around you are going to enjoy playing with you more? Why do people not decide to take the win-win scenario? Why do people think it's fine to be playing beyond sub-par and then have the right to complain about the people who are far exceeding expectations? This questions I have yet to find a plausible excuse. Just take the win-win, invest minimal time in looking at a guide, and there you will never hear complaints from us or you have to complain either. We suffer because of your constraints that you put on yourself. Not the other way around.

(When I mean you, your, I mean the person who is performing very badly, not you in particular.)

Unfortunately, tanking expert as a first time tank in 4-player dungeon has been possible, especially since the boost (and now TRUST system) is available. But even outside the boost, you could level via fate/PVP/deep dungeon/beast tribe/hunt/challenge log/alliance+trial+raid+MSQ roulettes/etc up to max level.

I wouldn't personally advice doing expert dungeon as a first time tank, but then again, expert dungeon could be easier than leveling dungeon given current dungeon design and having all your abilities. Thus, while it could be helpful when you have limited abilities, it's probably not necessary depending if you're the type who learn better by doing it since max level tanking feels more complete.

As for reading guides, I don't think that's necessary for dungeons provided you do read the tooltips. Even if it's not optimal rotation, I think reading the tooltips can give the basic idea of how the job can work. I definitely don't like to tank dungeons myself, but when I do, be it max level or lower level, I rarely get complaint from the party, and if there is any comment (which is rare), it's usually just a reminder that I can pull bigger, which is not something that would be solved by me reading a guide on my job. Only one time a healer rescued me in the middle of the level 67 dungeon to entice me to pull bigger for the pack after the second boss back during Stormblood (and yes, I put on my tank stance in Stormblood when doing dungeon unless anyone asked me to switch stance and I don't recall anyone ever did) and the run went smoothly before and after that rescue, no toxicity or anything.

[DPZ2]

By the fact that they do damage reminiscent of past expansions rather than the current one even when they're level capped and in decent gear.

Just because you're fine with that doesn't mean other people should be.

OK, what is your basis for "playing beyond sub-par" ... give specifics. All I saw there was an answer to a question that was never asked, and an assumption that was never stated.

[Raikai]

I'm going to ask as politely as I can and it is up for discussion.

If you do not do the hardcore content, how can you dictate the amount of hardcore content that is in the game? There are a lot of people who want more than what we got. Not a lot more, but we can definitely use more.

Uh... I don't need to actually experience Ultimates and Extremes to be able to classify them as hardcore. I can see the fights, and I've tried some myself.

It's okay to want more if you're into that kind of difficulty, but I'm not - thus that's why I feel satisfied by the amount we have so far.

[Nestama]

OK, what is your basis for "playing beyond sub-par" ... give specifics. All I saw there was an answer to a question that was never asked, and an assumption that was never stated.

I'm assuming beyond sub-par means doing less than the already below expected minimum, it's basically being a free-style SAM (not even doing a basic 1-2-3 rotation for the DoT Sen), but on all Jobs. If you've gone through 6 years of never seeing DPS, Healers and Tanks doing something that makes you go "hmmm, this doesn't seem right," then you're honestly the luckiest person in XIV and should really consider getting a lottery ticket.

I've seen DPS using single-target attacks in a pack of 10+ mobs (and when questioned why they didn't use AoE's, I get called a toxic elitist. Mate, I used all my CD's on the first pull as Tank and the SCH was out of CD's and even ate their fairy to make sure we wouldn't wipe), DPS using AoE's in Eden raids (DRG doing a 1-2 and no Coerthan Torment AoE rotation on E6N throughout the entire fight), Healers only using their first Heal spell (and nothing else. Not even a DPS spell) and tanks not using their defensive CD's with ~6+ mobs whacking them, not using AoE's on even 3 mobs and/or spinning the boss around.

Most of this is from level 80 content, btw (the picture is from Stone Vigil and that tank was just... not good. Never used AoE's and spun the boss around despite there being a MNK in the party.

I don't expect people to play at Savage tier, but I do at least expect them to know how to play their Job by level 80 (know what this and that do, basically).

[Veis_Alveare]

I don't expect people to play at Savage tier, but I do at least expect them to know how to play their Job by level 80 (know what this and that do, basically).

Basically this.

There is finite optimization available to every job to one extent or another but I wouldn't expect that sort of thing from a random in a dungeon. What I do expect is a good-faith attempt at putting together something resembling a rotation, keeping their GCD rolling... very basic things.

If people want specific examples I won't be sitting here outlining the bare minimum for every job but I'd expect the mistakes that are easily avoided by reading your tooltips and rubbing two neurons together to not happen. AoE on single target, healers not dpsing, tanks not mitigating, people not pressing their buttons.

Like you don't need to be pulling orange parses out of your butt, just don't be half afk or better replaced with a trust party member.

Edit: Doing these things will lead to you putting up what I'd consider respectable casual content numbers, as opposed to doing SB damage in ShB which is... startlingly common.