FF14 is not made for hardcore players.

[linayar]

Why do you feel it is acceptable for a healer or tank to steal 5-10 minutes from 3 other players when they can instead be considerate and not do that? What has given them that right and what makes their time so valuable that they may actively take it from the other players in the party?

Why is this selfishness acceptable to you?

No one has any right to anything, including time. The group will always decide anything that happens in the duty via going through with it, vote kick, or duty abandon.

Well, the individual does have a right to leave on their own and take any penalty that may apply.

At the end of the day, 5-10 minutes is an irrelevant amount of time for many people, and people will find ways to fill that time, just like they do with MS roulette or any other time that they spend playing an MMO.

[SavishSalacious]

If you are going to be participating in extreme and savage then yes, you do need to get better - MUCH BETTER at the game.

I don think any one expects you to be "perfect" if you are doing a dungeon - unless you are anything other then a DPS.

How ever, saying "new here" or "I am new" in chat at the beginning, if you are new, generally helps people not rage at you so hard.

[MilitaryVet123]

Why do you feel it is acceptable for a healer or tank to steal 5-10 minutes from 3 other players when they can instead be considerate and not do that? What has given them that right and what makes their time so valuable that they may actively take it from the other players in the party?

Why is this selfishness acceptable to you?

Seriously. People are not selfish for not spending 20 hours a week "improving" at a video game.

[Veis_Alveare]

Seriously. People are not selfish for not spending 20 hours a week "improving" at a video game.

I play less than that the vast majority of the time and I've cleared 2/3 Ultimates.

Come up with a new strawman, this whole "I don't have time" one is old.

[Darsien]

No one has any right to anything, including time. The group will always decide anything that happens in the duty via going through with it, vote kick, or duty abandon.

Well, the individual does have a right to leave on their own and take any penalty that may apply.

At the end of the day, 5-10 minutes is an irrelevant amount of time for many people, and people will find ways to fill that time, just like they do with MS roulette or any other time that they spend playing an MMO.

You're not the person I asked, but I'll respond. If no one has any right to time, then why is the default not "save as much time as is possible?" After all, you cannot possibly know if 5-10 minutes of time is significant to anyone other than yourself and saving time generally does not have significant downsides. If you had the opportunity to save time for a minimum of 3 players, would that alone not be justification enough to learn how to save that time, to play better? If not, why would you, or anyone, willfully choose to waste the time of the 3 other people when the cost on yourself is developing a skill?

Again, why is this selfishness acceptable to you?

[Veis_Alveare]

You're not the person I asked, but I'll respond. If no one has any right to time, then why is the default not "save as much time as is possible?" After all, you cannot possibly know if 5-10 minutes of time is significant to anyone other than yourself and saving time generally does not have significant downsides. If you had the opportunity to save time for a minimum of 3 players, would that alone not be justification enough to learn how to save that time, to play better? If not, why would you, or anyone, willfully choose to waste the time of the 3 other people when the cost on yourself is developing a skill?

Again, why is this selfishness acceptable to you?

And developing a skill in a video game they're choosing to play on top of that all.

Why anyone would pay $15 a month to spam Cure 2 I will never understand...

[linayar]

You're not the person I asked, but I'll respond. If no one has any right to time, then why is the default not "save as much time as is possible?" After all, you cannot possibly know if 5-10 minutes of time is significant to anyone other than yourself and saving time generally does not have significant downsides. If you had the opportunity to save time for a minimum of 3 players, would that alone not be justification enough to learn how to save that time, to play better? If not, why would you, or anyone, willfully choose to waste the time of the 3 other people when the cost on yourself is developing a skill?

Again, why is this selfishness acceptable to you?

The default is: do the dungeon, clear it. Time is not a conscious factor, and most people are not consciously thinking they're doing a dungeon in the hopes that they're prolonging the time it takes to do it.

You cannot know if time is significant for other people, that's why it's up to each individual person to think if they have the time to do a dungeon. I just did that earlier this week before going to work, decided I had two hours, which I thought is plenty for a dungeon in WoW and queued in, dungeon took an hour and 10 minutes to kill every boss and I got to work 3 minutes before my shift started.

The cost of developing a skill must be felt for it to matter. If the game allows you to clear content without developing skill, there is no incentive to develop such skill.

And developing a skill in a video game they're choosing to play on top of that all.

Why anyone would pay $15 a month to spam Cure 2 I will never understand...

Maybe they find enjoyment in other parts of the game. I've paid $10 just to change how my character looks, even minor changes, so I can't really judge how people spend their disposable income as long as they're responsible with their money overall.

[Darsien]

The default is: do the dungeon, clear it. Time is not a conscious factor, and most people are not consciously thinking they're doing a dungeon in the hopes that they're prolonging the time it takes to do it.

You cannot know if time is significant for other people, that's why it's up to each individual person to think if they have the time to do a dungeon. I just did that earlier this week before going to work, decided I had two hours, which I thought is plenty for a dungeon in WoW and queued in, dungeon took an hour and 10 minutes to kill every boss and I got to work 3 minutes before my shift started.

It is for some people. Sure, most people don't go in with a time expectation, but shorter is generally better than longer. That is why most 70+ dungeons have healers that contribute to damage and tanks that do full pulls. From that, I must reasonably conclude that people would prefer a shorter dungeon experience to a longer one.

But you've still not addressed my question. The act of costing others time, with no unbalanced cost to oneself, can be viewed as selfishness. I can list many real world examples, some of which reference time saves of less for more effort. So, for yet another time, I ask: Why is this selfishness deemed acceptable?

[linayar]

It is for some people. Sure, most people don't go in with a time expectation, but shorter is generally better than longer. That is why most 70+ dungeons have healers that contribute to damage and tanks that do full pulls. From that, I must reasonably conclude that people would prefer a shorter dungeon experience to a longer one.

Or they like using their skills.

But you've still not addressed my question. The act of costing others time, with no unbalanced cost to oneself, can be viewed as selfishness. I can list many real world examples, some of which reference time saves of less for more effort. So, for yet another time, I ask: Why is this selfishness deemed acceptable?

It depends if you think it is selfish. If most people don't go in with a time expectation, then most of the time it's not even an issue. In the cases where it is an issue, as I said earlier, the group will decide what's acceptable.

[Granyala]

Actually, yes.

You give your example of being fine with a zero dps healer in a dungeon.

I don't give a Qiqirn's rear end about SUBJECTIVE COMMUNITY STANDARDS in a discussion like this.

90% of the time, these standards are completely overblown to the point of pointlessness. Trust me, I've seen enough groups in WoW mandate better gear than the boss in question could drop.

This was a question about objective standards and the only objective standard is set by the game itself. If the boss goes down with a "heal only" healer, than that means he has done enough as far as the game is concerned.

Would we all like him to fill his downtime with DPS? Sure. But these are SUBJECTIVE standards, set by every individual. We do not have the right to enforce them (via vote kick etc) unless the game agrees via design and makes it an OBJECTIVE standard.

Yoshi P explicitly said he did not want to make FF11, which is a well-known time eater. He wanted to make a modern MMO that takes into account the modern work-life balance. I very much do not think this particular MMO is designed to be a time eater. If this was FF11 I would agree with you. But FF14 is not designed to serve hardcore players.

Compared to non MMOs, FF-XIV (even though quite casual friendly in design) is still quite taxing in the time department. It's okay, it's supposed to present you a persistent world with sth to do every day. That is virtually impossible to do w/o some form of grindy long-term goals.

Why do you feel it is acceptable for a healer or tank to steal 5-10 minutes from 3 other players when they can instead be considerate and not do that? What has given them that right and what makes their time so valuable that they may actively take it from the other players in the party?

Why is this selfishness acceptable to you?

What gives you the right to stress a player out who just wanted a nice relaxed dungeon run? He may just have come from work and be totally beat etc.
Who are you to decide what's right or not, especially in trivially easy content that does not require savage like performance?
See? I can easily turn that around, hence the subjective nature of these "community standards".

Truth is bud that Castrum and Red Chocobo aren't terribly difficult once you LEARN THE MECHANICS of these encounters. Just like any other video game.

Ah yes, I remember now. He was that dude... heh.
On a more serious note: once you figure out that you need to run into the middle when the X is gone and then go to a clearing where the red puddle is at the time the X reappears, Chocobo has become trivially easy.

I was rather disappointed by the Castrum though. Expected meaner stuff.