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  1. #321
    Player
    Hatfright's Avatar
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    Sono Faolain
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    Fisher Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX View Post
    What's rational about contradicting themselves on saying this isn't a challenge, on a thread complaining this is a challenge for some people?
    Have you finished with educating yourself yet? Add to the list an understanding of diffirences in challenges types, and understanding that people with dissabilities have enough of them as is, without some unfun mechanic which punishes the whole party.
    You're not making any points here. And I've yet to see the answer to why you feel the need to defend the QTE in question so hard.
    (6)
    Last edited by Hatfright; 08-23-2020 at 09:55 PM. Reason: grammar

  2. #322
    Player
    JohnSpawnVFX's Avatar
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    Kaynneth Menad
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    Zodiark
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    Red Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Hatfright View Post
    Have you finished with educating yourself yet? Add to the list an understanding of diffirences in challenges types, and understanding that people with dissabilities have enough of them as is, without some unfun mechanic which punishes the whole party.
    You're not making any points here. And I've yet to see the answer to why you feel the need to defend the QTE in question so hard.
    You're the ones not making any points here, because you're using emotions to argue logic.

    IF you're going to argue that this mechanic needs to be changed because it's a challenge for people with disabilities, you don't next go and point out that the mechanic isn't challenging. Wanting this to change really bad doesn't allow to spout any nonsense you want, just because you have no argument to give for the people who don't want it changed.

    Either it's a challenge or it isn't. You don't get to flipflop on it, whenever you feel like it.
    (1)

  3. #323
    Player
    Hatfright's Avatar
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    Sono Faolain
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    Fisher Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX View Post
    Snip
    He speaks. Finally.

    And that's where you're wrong. As this thread demonstrates, it is a non-fun challenge for people with dissabilities, and it isn't a challenge at all for most of the people without one. It can be both, imagine that. What you call logic is nothing more than a "flip-flop", an actual logic error. It's like saying "Humans are animals with a heart, therefore all animals with a heart are humans". We both know that's not how that works. And that is the exact point StriderShinryu trying to demonstrate.

    As many people said before, fun challenge is something more interesting that pressing one button to the ground. Something that require knowing your class, your positions, when to use your spells in order not to wipe the whole party. And, what a surprise, many people with disabilities do that: they clear Ex and Savage content, they find finishing it as a team rewarding. There's no teamwork in this QTE. You can't drop a shield on a teammate to prevent them from dying, you can't fill their healthbar to help them overcome something. Nothing. It's just you, a gauge you need to stop from dropping and a button. Where's the fun part in that? Everyone dying when someone fails? We saw more interesting interpretations on that take. With this one we don't even know who failed or why. We can't adjust the group performance or explain what went wrong so people won't fail the mechanic again. If someone can't press the button rapidly over and over, there's a lag, server acting funny again, no amount of explaining will change that. That is the main problem with this QTE.
    SE could've find a better solution to demonstrate the "oh no, if your will is not strong enough it's all over" feeling that interaction supposed to be. The thing is, doing it for the first time, most of the people won't even see the little yellow text on the lower side of their screens, cuz that QTE eats up all the attention. It is a bad game design choice by itself. Punishing people with disabilities for no reason is a nail on it's coffin.
    (7)
    "The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair, and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."
    J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

  4. #324
    Player
    JohnSpawnVFX's Avatar
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    Kaynneth Menad
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    Zodiark
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    Red Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Hatfright View Post
    He speaks. Finally.

    And that's where you're wrong. As this thread demonstrates, it is a non-fun challenge for people with dissabilities, and it isn't a challenge at all for most of the people without one. It can be both, imagine that. What you call logic is nothing more than a "flip-flop", an actual logic error. It's like saying "Humans are animals with a heart, therefore all animals with a heart are humans". We both know that's not how that works. And that is the exact point StriderShinryu trying to demonstrate.

    As many people said before, fun challenge is something more interesting that pressing one button to the ground. Something that require knowing your class, your positions, when to use your spells in order not to wipe the whole party. And, what a surprise, many people with disabilities do that: they clear Ex and Savage content, they find finishing it as a team rewarding. There's no teamwork in this QTE. You can't drop a shield on a teammate to prevent them from dying, you can't fill their healthbar to help them overcome something. Nothing. It's just you, a gauge you need to stop from dropping and a button. Where's the fun part in that? Everyone dying when someone fails? We saw more interesting interpretations on that take. With this one we don't even know who failed or why. We can't adjust the group performance or explain what went wrong so people won't fail the mechanic again. If someone can't press the button rapidly over and over, there's a lag, server acting funny again, no amount of explaining will change that. That is the main problem with this QTE.
    SE could've find a better solution to demonstrate the "oh no, if your will is not strong enough it's all over" feeling that interaction supposed to be. The thing is, doing it for the first time, most of the people won't even see the little yellow text on the lower side of their screens, cuz that QTE eats up all the attention. It is a bad game design choice by itself. Punishing people with disabilities for no reason is a nail on it's coffin.
    Except, I'm not the one flipflopping, you guys are. You'll argue that this is challenge for people with disabilities, and then go on your high pedestal of arrogance and prepotence and claim that "QTEs aren't challenging so they need to go". No specifics, no exceptions to the rule. just arguing two conflicting points because anything goes to get rid of QTES, including contradictions that supporters will overlook or lie about because it's convenient to do so.

    The same way that the people who said before that the QTEs aren't fun or interesting at all completely divorce them from the intent they were implemented for, while not doing the same to all the other content they claim to be more interesting (and I'm not even going to get into the fact that appparently fun is objective now, according to this thread). I can apply the same double standard to the same content they're claiming is vastly more interesting: you're just pressing buttons to make numbers pop up and bars go down. You're tapping buttons to parry a giant sword, get free of chains or jump off a plane at the right time, same way you're tapping buttons in a set rotation to kill bosses.

    Because intellectually dishonest people can oversimplify whatever they dislike but coincidentally they always forget to apply the same measure to whatever they're championing.
    (3)

  5. #325
    Player
    Mavrias's Avatar
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    Jyn Willowsong
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    Faerie
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    Scholar Lv 90
    Honestly, while the QTE wasn't hard, it wasn't all that entertaining either. They could have just had a solo dps check where you fought a sundered ascian one on one. The sundered ascian could mirror whatever job you are on and have health proportionate to your role. If anyone failed you could still do the 'back to the start with ye' thing.
    (5)

  6. #326
    Player
    Hatfright's Avatar
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    Sono Faolain
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX View Post
    snip
    You lost me here. Are we going to ignore the difference in the meaning of the word "challenge" again? Like... Can you not undestand there is a difference between a challenge as "overcoming physical disability" and a challenge as "overcoming bunch of evil pixels beating up my bunch of pixels"? If so, I don't even know how to react to that.
    I feel it's safe enough to assume almost everyone playing a game find it fun to face the second definition and get some endorfine out of it as a reward. But overlapping that with the frst one probably not gonna end in the same amount of fun, and in some cases will lead to the exact opposite. But I guess that's a double standard nowadays. How dare people to not want to face something they face daily in a videogame as well. The hypocrisy!

    And, no, tapping QTE isn't the same as tapping your rotation, that's the whole point of several posts here already. If that were true, people wouldn't have a problem with all the fights changed to just QTE, right? Why, it's the same thing, let's do that immediatly, noone will complain at all. See where I go with this?

    Again, in all the other interactions QTEs were much more managable for people with dissabilities and it were presented in a more... how do I put it, better way? Take Hades for example. The camera rotates during the QTE, there's just 8 of you in a complete darkness, so your attention doesn't slips away to the view in the background, and then someone breaks the chains, shining in the process, visualising the will to take it all to the end, then another one, and another one, and even if someone fails QTE, there is still people to pick up the fight. All together it looked and felt beautiful. Same goes for Shinry. Tank QTEs in Susanoo and Varis fights felt like everying is depending on you holding that sword, but at the same time, you know that it's not just your effort, everyone in the party do their parts. Even jumping from the ship in A11 felt more like "oh no, I don't wanna die" moment than what we see in SoS. The only thing there they came up with to demonstrate the urgency of the moment is sped up QTE and a text practically noone will notice. If that's the way SE wants us to feel "the desire to succeed", they might as well get rid of it, cuz it's not gonna work. And, yes, it will save people with disabilities a lot of nerves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mavrias View Post
    Honestly, while the QTE wasn't hard, it wasn't all that entertaining either. They could have just had a solo dps check where you fought a sundered ascian one on one. The sundered ascian could mirror whatever job you are on and have health proportionate to your role. If anyone failed you could still do the 'back to the start with ye' thing.
    This. Tbh, I'd even preffer the 73 dungeon mechanic from last boss. Just moving on the thin line is more entertaining, and it feels more dangerous in itself.
    (7)
    "The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair, and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."
    J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

  7. 08-24-2020 02:48 AM

  8. #327
    Player
    InkB's Avatar
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    Gridania
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    Ink F'rahko
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    Omega
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    Sage Lv 90
    IMO, It shouldnt wipe the party in 'normal'. Extreme (if it has one)? Sure, yes. Go ahead. If you are doing extreme you are probably prepared for the QTE and button spamming rotations anyway.

    On normal the player should just die or get weakened/vunerability stack.
    (3)

  9. #328
    Player
    Nestama's Avatar
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    Nestama Eynfoetsyn
    World
    Lamia
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    Samurai Lv 100
    The QTE in the fight is deceptive. It looks hard, but it's actually really easy and only needs you to casually tap, not mash. When it nears the failing point, it suddenly becomes super easy as a single button press will shoot the bar far and away from the failing point. So don't mash, just tap. (kinda spoilers in link)

    Extreme does not have the QTE because the fight starts in the second phase.
    (1)
    Last edited by Nestama; 08-24-2020 at 09:53 AM.

  10. #329
    Player
    RajNish's Avatar
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    Asha Dakwhil
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    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX View Post
    IF you're going to argue that this mechanic needs to be changed because it's a challenge for people with disabilities, you don't next go and point out that the mechanic isn't challenging. Wanting this to change really bad doesn't allow to spout any nonsense you want, just because you have no argument to give for the people who don't want it changed.
    That is, for you, any gaming challenge should involve real physical pain? How interesting.
    (5)

  11. #330
    Player Doozer's Avatar
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    Eureka Orthos
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    Gunnar Mel'nik
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    Diabolos
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    Bard Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by RajNish View Post
    That is, for you, any gaming challenge should involve real physical pain? How interesting.
    Maybe I just can't read, but I can't see anywhere in what you quoted where they said they think a challenge should involve real physical pain. Can you zero in on that part for me real quick?
    (3)

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