DRK QOL changes for 5.4

[cactuarzzzz]

Stop with the ninja edits. It destroys conversation flow and makes it looks like I am dodging parts of your responses on purpose.


Literally on page one, comparison to Holmgang a WAR ability, while ignoring the GNB and PLD invuls:






You mean Heirro? One person, who only said one line? The guy who said “it’s fine?”

Also, comparison to WAR again, one page one:


At least this could be a legit complaint. Though removing the movement penalty was easier than what was proposed to LD.



The first one, zero likes, but came with a full conversation that was productive. There was no mention of other tanks either, just mentions of older versions of DRK.

As for the second thread, yeah, no WAR comparisons, but people were not really open to discussing with you too much either.

Stop with the ninja edits. It destroys conversation flow and makes it looks like I am dodging parts of your responses on purpose.

You know what there's something called daily post limit restriction so from now on I will gather your other comment and edit reply in one post. I'm not going to get baited to hit limit easily.

Literally on page one, comparison to Holmgang a WAR ability, while ignoring the GNB and PLD invuls:

IT IS NOT OP

IT IS NOT DRK

WHO COMPARE IT TO WAR LIKE YOUR ORIGINAL CLAIM. Lose track of what you're talking about haven't you?

You mean Heirro? One person, who only said one line? The guy who said “it’s fine?”

Yes if you look at this post history anyone can see his habit to troll.


Also, comparison to WAR again, one page one:

Lyth isn't the one who start talking about war first it is after Hiero who came to troll and irk DRK.


The first one, zero likes, but came with a full conversation that was productive. There was no mention of other tanks either, just mentions of older versions of DRK.

As for the second thread, yeah, no WAR comparisons, but people were not really open to discussing with you too much either.

I don't care about "like" thank you but nice try dodging the fact that I have 2 WAR main coming with intention to troll.

That’s your only proof? The proof we have all have seen and a good number of us that do not agree with Yoshi’s opinion on his reasoning?
I thought you would have something about DRK as a whole, not just LD.




Again, tribalism. You keep screaming that WARs always want to be on top. WARs always want to be number one, etc.
I can change a WAR to a different set of nouns and that would be enough to get me arrested in some countries.
It is that same mindset of victimization and building a case around that mentality. It’s sickening to me.









That’s it? These quotes without context are your points?
These are all, without question, WAR mains?
These five people, proof of the community of WARs oppressing DRKs?

THEN HOW ABOUT YOU SHOW ME YOUR PROOF NOW?
It is funny how you keep asking me for more proof but you have none of your own then proceed to act like you're already right about it.

I forgot about the limit, thanks for the reminder.

Again, it does break conversation flows and it does make it seem I am being disingenuous on the responses.



I had to go back and look at my older posts here.

I knew I left out a caveat for specificity in case I were to run into what you are exactly doing here.

When I stated that DRKs compare to WAR, it was under the assumption that it was not only applied to OPs. That assumption applied to responses as well. Since I assumed that was a given assumption, I didn’t state that caveat.

Foolsih me since I should have looked out of that.

Also, since I brought this up, if you do try to force the frame of the conversation to this or use this to focus the conversation, I will call you out on it.



And he is fed. Also, referencing him feeds him more. If you ignore it, it will go away.



Lyth is the first person to compare WAR and DRK. Which was my point. You tried to show me a troll as proof.


You should care about the like ratio. That could be used by SE for a quick measurement to see what level of interest the community has for something.
I wasn’t dodging the “2 WAR mains.” I was pointing out that the first conversation was productive and a lack of comparing it to WAR helped kept it that way. It was an entertaining thread.
The second thread, people were no warm to your OP because of timing: it was too close to the first thread you made.

And he is fed. Also, referencing him feeds him more. If you ignore it, it will go away.

He hindered DRK by disregard all the point DRK made and saying it's fine. Your claim that WAR didn't hindered DRK is already prove wrong.

Lyth is the first person to compare WAR and DRK. Which was my point. You tried to show me a troll as proof.

Lyth only compare it to war after the provoke of Hiero. It still stand that WAR is the one who start it first. You attempt to pardon your fellow WAR [If you ignore it, it will go away.] isn't charming to know? the idea that DRK need to tolerate it is utterly nonsense when the question is "did war attempted to hindered/derail DRK thread or not"

You should care about the like ratio.

No I don't. In this forum if you can gather your friend or use your alternate account you can leave a like that no other people can take it down. It have no indicator to show how much that comment is dislike by other people vs like. If you can form a faction you can have many more "like" regardless of how wrong it is.

and lastly even if you get many like SE can just turn blind eye to it. Like shao thread from last year.

Says the person positing items that is not even proof. Your "proof" is something that fits your victim mentality you have built up around one job.

Proof now of what? Tell me exactly so I can show you and then you can shoot that down because you are not open to discussion nor to even consider reflecting on your own actions.

If you had any notion of self reflection, you would at least admit that some of your actions may be causing DRKs to stay stagnent as they are.

The only person in this thread that even tried to unify DRKs is currentlemelon and you made sure to push your mentality onto them. GG. It must be a WAR main doing that to you too.

You can't even give proof to supposed your claim that "DRK is in the state it is in because the community made it that way, and the community still hasn’t accepted any responsibility for making DRK the way it is. Yes, it is your fault why DRK the way it is."

what a laugh.

Then any form of non-compliance or echo is a form of hinderance.
Just like what you did in this thread on your initial response.
This makes you no better than the WAR Strawmen you keep propping up.



Incorrect. Lyth responded to the OP’s post. Which could easily be drawn to.

Accusing me to be a fellow WAR is an attempt by you to reframe the argument. “I must be WAR main because I am disagreeing with you,” is your mindset. Which is sad.

By the way, you can go onto that site with those rainbow colored bars, find all of my numbers and you can see which job I actually main (hint, it isn’t a tank). I’ll point you to the right sections: Normal raids and Endgame Dungeons for Shadowbringers. Just because I have "Warrior" for my main class on the forums, doesn't make it true. I as also Main Class Botanist for the longest time.



Shortcomming from SE if that is true.

Then any form of non-compliance or echo is a form of hinderance.
Just like what you did in this thread on your initial response.
This makes you no better than the WAR Strawmen you keep propping up.

What make you think that war deserve better after that hindering?

Incorrect. Lyth responded to the OP’s post. Which could easily be drawn to.

Accusing me to be a fellow WAR is an attempt by you to reframe the argument. “I must be WAR main because I am disagreeing with you,” is your mindset. Which is sad.


Don't start making a rule that someone can't feel like respond to OP and Retaliation to WAR who came to hindered DRK at the same time.


By the way, you can go onto that site with those rainbow colored bars, find all of my numbers and you can see which job I actually main (hint, it isn’t a tank). I’ll point you to the right sections: Normal raids and Endgame Dungeons for Shadowbringers. Just because I have "Warrior" for my main class on the forums, doesn't make it true. I as also Main Class Botanist for the longest time.

Then how do you claim that "DRK is in the state it is in because the community made it that way, and the community still hasn’t accepted any responsibility for making DRK the way it is. Yes, it is your fault why DRK the way it is."

Because you already knew everyone when you start make that claim? Look at yourself.
Oh and by the way I didn't call you WAR main so don't jump the gun.

FFS this back and forth argument is ridiculous.
Both of you are being stubborn and both of you are being intentionally antagonistic towards the other.



You are right in your initial assertion that much of the reason that DRK is the way it is in its current incarnation is due to the community and there too often being a lack of sensible, thought out feedback.
I'm going to be brutally honest, too many players seem to lack the capacity to grasp the intricacies of game-play systems like job design or lack the temperament to see past their own self -imposed blinders due to stubborn arrogance. It's much like a modern example of the parable of the blind men and the elephant. Too often feedback is based off of emotional snap judgments, bandwagoning or other shallow reasonings, instead of taking the time to actually try to think on the meaningful details of problems and solutions. That is why in the past there was so much feedback for DRK that basically pointed to WAR and said "see what they have, give us that". That is why we still keep getting feedback that basically boils down to rolling back DRK to a previous version while ignoring the overarching changes and general evolution of tanks in general. That is why you get some players that argued for changes like we got and now are ranting about those very same changes and angrily demanding to go back to the very state that they previously argued against. Far too few try to put the thought and mental mileage in on their feedback; breaking down the nuances of the perceived problems to get to the root of the issues and instead want to just burn the whole thing down, looking at aspects of other jobs or previous versions of a job that seem like good potential alternatives and then trying to dig deeper as to why those things are fun or work to then build from that and instead just point to that other job and demand to be given exactly what they have.
People clamor for quick and easy answers, but easy answers tend to be fool's gold, glittery and shiny from afar but then when you get it in hand and can take a closer look, you realize it's not what you actually wanted and is relatively worthless.

Now that I have seemingly been pretty harsh towards the community, I'd like to soften the blow a bit.
While the transgressions gone into above are a problem with the community, they are not reflective of all of the community. Of course much of the community do not post on the forums or tend to not engage in such threads, so those that do are already a smaller portion of the whole.
Then among that portion there is, has and hopefully always will be a group of forum posters that actually are thoughtful, thorough and measured. Unfortunately said group tends to often get overshadowed by the more reactionary crowd and even get denounced, being called all sorts of dismissive labels such as "elitists" or being told that they don't care or were trying to hurt this or that job because they didn't immediately jump on the emotion-fueled bandwagon. Trying to be a voice of reason here on the forums, or really anywhere in life, is exhausting and more often then not tends to burn people out to where they no longer want to bother and simply walk away to leave people to their own devices and to suffer the inevitable consequences.
It also needs to taken into account that much of the posts and commentary in question on these forums and it seems especially regarding DRK, tends to be a small group of players that like to make a lot of noise. They post over and over, thread after thread, comment after comment, the same sort of stuff, often in concentrated bursts that crop up regularly. This attention seeking then tends to make the entirety of DRK posters look bad as a whole through association because when people see another DRK topic come up, they immediately roll their eyes and think "oh great another one of these", or if a sensible DRK discussion does somehow get going it can be expected that soon enough one of these posters will come in and blow the discussion up and derailing any meaningful discourse.

TLDR: We are our own worst enemies. Think before you speak (or type), I mean really actually think. Check yourself before you wreck yourself. Ignore the clowns that just want to turn everything into a circus.
* I'm using the general you above in the TLDR.



You are partially right that there has indeed been a history of some WAR players coming into DRK discussions and being intentionally antagonistic. This has been happening since Heavensward and was happening before that in ARR but to Paladin.
However, this has not been the WAR playerbase as a whole, not even close, and so painting with such broad strokes and making out "WAR mains" as a whole to be a bunch of jerks out to get you and other DRK players is both inaccurate and unfair.
There are many WAR players that make good points on things regarding DRK and many actually support and argue for DRK changes being asked for. The posters that tend to come in and crap all over anything DRK related tend to be a very small group that, judging by what they post and how they post, seem to be more just individuals that like to be condescending provocateurs that get people riled up. The fact that many of these poster seem to have gravitated to WAR as their preferred job is notable but entirely circumstantial.
Also, just because someone disagrees with you on something DRK related doesn't mean they are trying to tear down DRK as a whole. I disagree with plenty of stuff put out there regarding DRK and I most definitely support changes for DRK, perhaps just not your or some other peoples' changes. So I think you really need to slow your roll and drop the anti-WAR rhetoric, it doesn't help you or anybody else and just clutters the forums with pointless arguments and tribalism.

TLDR: Haters gonna hate, but the amount that aren't haters tend to be greater.

I wasn't trying to fill this thread with my own comments. That's why I try to gather them up in this one post.
First I have to apologize that you have to be here writing instead of enjoying the patch day.

Now for your claim. Do we DRK community really ask for a watered down version of WAR? because I don't remember doing so when I saw what WAR can do in stromblood

Are you sure that you didn't mistake the plea to make DRK equal to war in stromblood as a request to get a watered down version of it?

I remember how community being clear that they don't want LD/Dark Mind to stay as it is since media tour.

I haven't seen any WAR main that's our ally like you claim.

Do you believe I supposed to kept quite and thing would change?

2 expansions taught me it isn't.

After other DRK main who organized a good thread and get other DRK main to join in for feed back have been ignored by SE

I'm done with waiting, I'm done with let WAR one sided hinder and derail us and let them get away.

I'm not disappointed with you less than you disappointed with me. It remind me of the mentality of common people irl that they tend to be brave with their fellow normal citizen but let the jerk, hooligan get away. Before you came there's 1 person insult me harshly but you let him/her off the hook. That's wrong move if you try to convince me.

Haha, no worries. It was just as much for my own sanity as I really like to read other peoples' thoughts and opinions on things but I despise bickering.
Thank you for realizing what was happening and deciding to pump the brakes on it and please feel free to keep posting in this or whatever thread you so choose. You have valid opinions on things that you should feel free to be able to express and points that other may read and agree with, for example I obviously agree with your opinion on DRK changes mostly being the result of player feedback and so if people don't like them we only have ourselves to blame.
We simply need to be careful about how we respond and interact with each other and to avoid these snowballing back and forth arguments, that is all.

It seem you're feeling good with that praise

but while you're at it

Please show me the source for your claim that "DRK changes mostly being the result of player feedback and so if people don't like them we only have ourselves to blame."

DRK is in the state it is in because the community made it that way, and the community still hasn’t accepted any responsibility for making DRK the way it is. Yes, it is your fault why DRK the way it is.

First you say it my fault.

Because I was there at the start of StB, where both DRKs and WARs united when both jobs needed major changes.

It was beautiful. You can look through that whole period of time and see the threads where there were discussions. Trolls of course occurred and dissenters, but that is normal.

Then SE made major changes to WAR and DRK got next to nothing, and everything went to pot quickly.

Both parties were not happy on the aggregate.

There were WARs that rubbed in the faces of DRKs. Which began the split of the community. I blame those WARs for not having empathy, but I also blame the WAR community for not condemning the behavior. Which is why I put myself as part of the blame for how DRK turned out today.

Though, the DRKs were no better. They reacted emotionally to the results from SE and some went into threads just to force the thread to change it into a DRK thread.

Here is an example of a thread that celebrated the fix WARs go, and a DRK main went in, all soured, and was trying to force the thread into a DRK thread:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...nges-are-great

My response to that sour DRK:


We tried having more discussions, but they always fell apart. DRKs either complaining and pointing at WARs or WARs reacting with “DRK did Ultimate, you’re fine,” meme.

The community is at the fault for DRK as it is, because we didn’t stop the focusing on WAR from both WARs and DRKs. Instead of trying to get DRK back to like it was in a prior expansion (like your threads tried), fingers were pointed at WAR.

By the way, when you state “fellow WAR” that means you have grouped me within that community and assumed my main. You jumped the gun, not me.

Now you contradicted yourself. You didn't come here to apologize too.
You show up to stop me but did you show up stop the WAR being a jerk? if not how long you would like keep to blaming yourself?