DRK QOL changes for 5.4

**Kabooa** · 08-15-2020 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by bundythenoob

I feel you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the Blood Weapon speed thing. The fact that Square chose to give DRK natural mana regen ticks, paired with the huge potencies of both Blood skills and Edge/Flood has sort of locked them into a situation where DRK cannot be allowed to generate resources as it once used to, or else the job would go haywire in the damage department.

Not really.

Everything ultimately comes down to potency / second. As haste effects do not apply to passive MP ticks, increasing the rate of their attacks isn't a 100% translation to increased MP. Current Dark gets something like 12,000 MP a minute from passive ticks and all their other actions, assuming some basic rotation and not something hyper adjusted on a per fight encounter.

4,000 of that is coming from the Mana tick. (20 ticks / minute at 200 mp / tick).

You could achieve "The Fast Tank" by simply swapping the Darkside benefit from 10% damage to haste, and since haste isn't 1:1 with Dark's damage due to some of it being in Non-Resourced based OGCDs, it could be as high as 15% and keep the Dark Knight mostly neutral.

**TouchandFeel** · 08-15-2020 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by bundythenoob

snip

As Kabooa pointed out, haste doesn't have an effect on passive MP regen ticks. Those are based on server ticks and live independent of the GCD. The only place haste would affect resource gain is through the combos and even that would be minimal since your GCD rotation cycle speed would have to be increased quite a bit before you would notice much in the way of gains and I've already talked about the problems such a drastic increase in GCD speed could result in.

In regards to oGCD frequency and GCD variance, and whether through MP gain increases or other methods, I don't think that it is really an "either/or" situation and the best way to tackle it overall to make DRK feel "fast" is to do both in a measured fashion.

I am not sure that increasing MP gain is really the way to go for increasing oGCD frequency since DRK is pretty good with the frequency of MP ability usages, that and increasing MP gain has ripple effects that need to be accounted for and so any tweaking to that should be precise injections of MP at specific points to address certain issues. For example, the one place that I feel DRK really could use more incoming MP is during Delirium since you are burning through so much for your burst that you end up relatively dry after, leaving you with virtually no oGCDs to use and then you end up with that dreaded period of Soul Eater spam that is so maligned. If Delirium just provided a tad bit more MP per hit, it would not affect that much but that little bit extra is during the DRK's biggest dry spell and it will make DRK feel much better by helping to alleviate that. That is something that is relatively easy that I could see be implemented in a patch mid-expansion.

Other oGCDs could be tweaked to provide more frequency but those might require a little more tweaking, so it is tough to say whether the devs would be willing to do that mid expansion.
The easiest would likely be decreasing Carve and Spit's recast to 45s or 30s and adjusting the potency and MP gain accordingly to compensate. This would also work great for being able to line up with Delerium's 90s recast better, allowing you to use it to top off MP a little bit more right before Delirium or to help recover a bit more MP right after.

Other stuff like creating more variation in GCD rotations is a bit bigger and would require more sweeping changes that would likely need to be reserved for changes accompanying an expansion.
As I've said in other posts, I feel the way to do that is to take a note from GNB where they break up GCD rotations with more frequent cartridge abilities, with DRK's equivalent being Blood. This would require a slew of things including a potential rebalalencing of potencies for a few abilities to compensate for more frequent usage as well as adjustments to how Blood would accumulate. Do you just simply increase the Blood gain from combos? Do you add Blood gain elsewhere? Do you redo the Blood resource entirely to make it more like the Cartridge system on GNB? How does Blood Weapon fit into this all? How is Delirium affected? There are a lot of questions that would need answering, but it could be done, just not mid-expansion.

**bundythenoob** · 08-15-2020 11:09 AM

whoops, I should clarify a bit. I didn't mean the haste portion of blood weapon would make the skill bonkers, but I was referring to the speed of resource generation that you mentioned, and how it would affect current DRK due to the strength of Edge of Shadow and Bloodspiller. for a bit more clarity, say that current DRK got old BW back, getting 15 seconds worth of mana and blood generation every 40 seconds would cause a bit too much damage to come in.

I do agree though that simply adding haste increase to BW wouldnt feel as good as increasing its mana/blood generation, which is where I think current DRK should lean more towards.

I think if square turned Abyssal Drain back into a mana spender, we could allow for Blood Weapon to regain a bit of its old strength in generating resource, but they would also have to balance its potential AOE dmg vs Floods aoe dmg for moments in which the reapplication of Darkside isn't needed, and it would also have to have strength comparable to edge for moments in which self healing during bosses is needed. maybe if the lv 74 trait also extended to increase AD's potency?

As for your point on Delirium and CnS, they definitely need to generate more MP. CnS generating 600 per minute is rather weak for a capstone skill, and Bloodspiller giving us a measly 200 is nowhere near as good as Quietus generating 500mp per hit, but either way both of these would need a bit of rebalancing in the potency department if we are to use them more frequently, or if we are to use edge/flood more frequently, in order to keep the balance between tank jobs.

I think the problems with making Blood similar to GNBs cartridge system might just be linked to how blood skills are now being used for huge burst damage as opposed to consistent damage + resource like in the past. maybe DRKs burst should better be found in the form of Living Shadow being reworked so that Esteem copies our ability usage 1:1, which would effectively allow the consistent damage to become twice as strong during that period? not too sure on how that would work out though in terms of balance, seeing as how current blood gauge + Dark Arts would allow us to store resources until that window comes up.

Finally, as for Darkside swapping damage bonus for haste, that might be a good way to differentiate DRKs playstyle from WARs. Maybe increase Storm buff to 20% so that WAR stays slow but strong, and DRKs haste buff makes up for the lack of strong burst with fast consistent damage? but this might also need to be tied to the rework to blood skills as i mentioned.

**Lyth** · 08-15-2020 02:09 PM

Speed is more about the feel of the job than anything else. It's not that Huton is essential to NIN's design. It's just more satisfying playing the job with it up. The same was true for DRK and Blood Weapon. You could easily attach a speed boost to Darkside at baseline and some people would enjoy DRK on that premise alone.

From a resource management standpoint, there just needs to be more interaction between MP and blood, such that using one resource generates the other.

Here's one of the problems with tank identity:

Tank 1:
Self-healing combo
Short recast CD: Bubble shield
AoE mitigation: Magic damage reduction
Invuln: High healing requirement invuln, fight to the death

Tank 2:
Self-healing combo
Short recast CD: Massive burst healing
AoE Mitigation: Bubble shield
Invuln: Vanilla death prevention

Tank 3:
Self bubble-shielding combo
Short recast CD: Vanilla damage reduction
AoE mitigation: Magic damage reduction
Invuln: Bubble shield

Tank 4:
Block
Short recast CD: Block
AoE mitigation: Block
Invuln: Invincible

So Tank 4 has it right, which is why a lot of people like it. There's a consistent unifying theme. People like Tank 2 post patch because it's starting to come together. This is what we need:

Tank 1:
Self bubble-shielding combo
Short recast CD: Bubble shield
AoE mitigation: Bubble shield
Invuln: Bubble shield

Tank 2:
Self-healing combo
Short recast CD: Massive burst healing
AoE Mitigation: AoE HP boost
Invuln: High healing requirement invuln, fight to the death

Tank 3:
Combo that generates an evasion effect
Short recast CD: Shade Shift
AoE mitigation: AoE Shade Shift
Invuln: Perfect Dodge

Tank 4:
Block
Short recast CD: Block
AoE mitigation: Block
Invuln: Invincible

It's a rough idea, but you should get the picture. Instead of trying to give everyone everything, push each job down a different road that is thematically consistent at all levels.

**Kabooa** · 08-16-2020 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by Lyth

It's a rough idea, but you should get the picture. Instead of trying to give everyone everything, push each job down a different road that is thematically consistent at all levels.

5.2 Gunbreaker's PVP kit was astoundingly better in the mechanics department than the PVE variation.

And given that the pvp kits are supposed to be simpler because "PvP", it was baffling when I saw it.

Like good old fashioned honest to god intra-kit woven mechanics.

**bundythenoob** · 08-16-2020 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by Lyth

It's a rough idea, but you should get the picture. Instead of trying to give everyone everything, push each job down a different road that is thematically consistent at all levels.

While I don't mind certain tools overlapping, such as each tank having a way to self sustain via heals, I do agree that making each tanks major tools be unique like that would be better for the state of gameplay identity overall.

Does this mean if we make DRK have a barrier effect on its 3rd combo, we can has power slash back?

but how would that work? would it be like a 300 potency barrier that grants us something small, like 500 mp when it pops?

If we are to return Abyssal Drain as a mana spender, that could mean we wouldn't need Souleater to give us consistent heals because we would have a consistent shield and then AD would be for burst healing, which wouldnt be a bad niche for the skill.

**NyneSwordz** · 08-16-2020 04:50 AM

I haven't played dark since heavensward. But I liked its weaving game play tbh. I know some people didn't like dark arts in storm blood because it was too spammy, but I miss the animation and how it really was a unique mechanic. I wish they continued to work on it instead of abandoning it completely.

Darks also had some of the best level 3 combo attacks with power slash (was it powers last? I forget) and old-school delirium. They were beautiful. I wish they could be brought back in someway.

**bundythenoob** · 08-16-2020 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

I haven't played dark since heavensward. But I liked its weaving game play tbh. I know some people didn't like dark arts in storm blood because it was too spammy, but I miss the animation and how it really was a unique mechanic. I wish they continued to work on it instead of abandoning it completely.

Darks also had some of the best level 3 combo attacks with power slash (was it powers last? I forget) and old-school delirium. They were beautiful. I wish they could be brought back in someway.

if there's one change i wish SE makes in the future, its to bring back the Dark Arts animation during the DA proc for TBN.

right now, when TBN pops, you get a small visual indication of like a few red bubbles flying to your character, but I think it would be cooler if once TBN pops your character does the old dark arts animation to signify that you have it ready. since I mostly play while looking at my character, that visual indication would be a nice change and a good way to bring back the old animation without bringing back the skill, which could be problematic for people with high ping.

Just a change I would love to see

**WhyAmIHere** · 08-17-2020 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by bundythenoob

if there's one change i wish SE makes in the future, its to bring back the Dark Arts animation during the DA proc for TBN.

right now, when TBN pops, you get a small visual indication of like a few red bubbles flying to your character, but I think it would be cooler if once TBN pops your character does the old dark arts animation to signify that you have it ready. since I mostly play while looking at my character, that visual indication would be a nice change and a good way to bring back the old animation without bringing back the skill, which could be problematic for people with high ping.

Just a change I would love to see

only if they also bring with it the reduced animation lock on DA in a SB patch.

**TheRealQuah** · 08-17-2020 05:08 AM

Now Yodhi P has said there will be no more tank changes in the 5.x series, can we get rid of these pointless threads?

Thread: DRK QOL changes for 5.4

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