Thread: DRK QOL changes for 5.4

Originally Posted by Lyth

The biggest change that needs to happen is related to Living Dead. The action description and tooltips need to be re-written/re-localised so that they actually match up with how the ability functions. There needs to be a UI element/gauge which shows the amount of healing required to cleanse the effect that is intuitive to newer players and their healers. The beneficial effect shouldn't be terminated early when you satisfy the healing requirements. And it's on the wrong tank. Self-healing very clearly isn't DRK's thing, and won't be unless the devs change around their existing tank identities significantly.

The fact that the latest trial boss uses Walking Dead as a status ailment, and I see/am healers struggling with the ailment shows that this isn't a nice status. It's mildly hilarious, but in an appalling way, that they can just copy the effect onto a boss as a mechanic to work around.

I don't think that "It's not as good as Holmgang or Superbolide" is a fair comparison. It's like saying "it's not as cool as lukewarm water." I don't think WAR can really "save themselves" from a used Holmgang, as that requires you to save other cooldowns to save yourself with. I don't know how we're comparing this (is it fighting without any healer, or fighting with minimal healer input?), but when there's enough incoming damage to need Holmgang, you can't really come back from it without a healer. And Superbolide is worse, because neither Aurora nor Brutal Shell is going to save you from an autoattack the moment the cooldown wears off.

I agree entirely that Living Dead is garbage, but don't act like it's the only cooldown that puts you on death's doorstep. It's just the one that needs the most healer input to recover from.

Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

On topic, I think the two aspects that really harm DRK is both its bad ability placement while leveling, and how it devolves in the endgame into just WAR but shields. And unfortunately, I don't think they're gonna revamp DRK in ShB, when we had a ninja overhaul and a monk revamp is in the way: there's only so much time in a patch cycle, and we likely have another expansion on the way soon too.

You're right about both points but I believe we have the power to influence square to change the leveling kit first. I hope we can get them to do so before or on 5.4, so that we can then begin to focus on how to bring back the gameplay identity. I have a few ideas myself on how to do so, using the current DRK build as a shell, but I will refrain from derailing this thread into another "Muh DRK rework" thread.

Originally Posted by currentlemon

Thank you for doing this. The problem that I saw with DRK mains is that they never came together and provided QoL changes to the current DRK build after the expansion came out. Most would either get into arguments of what DRK should be or ramble all day what reworks work best for the job.

After 5.3, we need to come together and ask SE for some QoL changes like what the WAR mains did. At least for now until the later patches come out. Don't get me wrong, DRK definitely needs something, but we gotta start small first. A few changes like what you suggested is a start.

I remember, back in the Halcyon days of SB, when a user made a post. I think theyre name was Lyth? Who endeavored to propose a sweeping set of ideas and changes to unify DRK players to hope for changes and improvements to DRK. There were other more prolific posters as well and all of them wanted to see DRK improve.

I don't see the old guard anymore and I have yet to read up on this thread, but I just wanted to point this out.

Originally Posted by bundythenoob

...

Fair enough. But really, DRK needs to be linked to a starting hub to get the most benefit out of that. Unless the plan is to make Ishgard into one post-restoration?

I don't think a convalescence buff really solves the underlying problems. It was still bad even when we had Convalescence. This is a five year old problem with a longstanding history of complaints behind it.

Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

...

There isn't really a clear direction for DRK to follow thematically. Every time that a potential theme starts being developed, it gets washed away by overlap with other tanks. But there has to be a certain degree of mutual agreement between jobs to give up their areas of overlap. As an example, WAR has consistent access to a lot of self-healing with this patch, much moreso than anyone else. So if that's the 'theme' of the job, then make it job exclusive and build around it. We don't all need token self-heals on every tank. If DRK is going to focus on barriers, then we don't need token barrier shields on every job. Get the others to give that up in exchange. Otherwise you have four very similar tanks. The problem is that people get greedy and want everything that the others have +1. That was especially true for the past three expansions. Now that we have a level playing field with Shadowbringers, I think some negotiation is in order.

Originally Posted by Lyth

Fair enough. But really, DRK needs to be linked to a starting hub to get the most benefit out of that. Unless the plan is to make Ishgard into one post-restoration?

I don't think a convalescence buff really solves the underlying problems. It was still bad even when we had Convalescence. This is a five year old problem with a longstanding history of complaints behind it.

There isn't really a clear direction for DRK to follow thematically. Every time that a potential theme starts being developed, it gets washed away by overlap with other tanks. But there has to be a certain degree of mutual agreement between jobs to give up their areas of overlap. As an example, WAR has consistent access to a lot of self-healing with this patch, much moreso than anyone else. So if that's the 'theme' of the job, then make it job exclusive and build around it. We don't all need token self-heals on every tank. If DRK is going to focus on barriers, then we don't need token barrier shields on every job. Get the others to give that up in exchange. Otherwise you have four very similar tanks. The problem is that people get greedy and want everything that the others have +1. That was especially true for the past three expansions. Now that we have a level playing field with Shadowbringers, I think some negotiation is in order.

You're right that Convalescence isn't enough to fix LD, but I wrote that mostly as a short suggestion that wouldn't require an overhaul of the skill, as the point of this thread was to suggest some easy QOL changes that could be implemented. as for afterwards, I think we can come to a decision on what to do for the skill in terms of reworking it, either for 5.5 or 6.0, whichever the devs decide to take.

As for the DRK thematic direction, I believe that the current DRK could benefit from having the new Dark Arts proc affect multiple skills once again as it used to in HW, since its effectively sitting on a 3000 mana cost and 15sec cooldown, but that would mean having to give up some tools like u suggested. perhaps have dark missionary also become like a mini TBN that rewards us with some mana or blood once its barrier has been absorbed? but what would we do about souleater and abyssal drain?

Originally Posted by Lyth

There isn't really a clear direction for DRK to follow thematically. Every time that a potential theme starts being developed, it gets washed away by overlap with other tanks. But there has to be a certain degree of mutual agreement between jobs to give up their areas of overlap. As an example, WAR has consistent access to a lot of self-healing with this patch, much moreso than anyone else. So if that's the 'theme' of the job, then make it job exclusive and build around it. We don't all need token self-heals on every tank. If DRK is going to focus on barriers, then we don't need token barrier shields on every job. Get the others to give that up in exchange. Otherwise you have four very similar tanks. The problem is that people get greedy and want everything that the others have +1. That was especially true for the past three expansions. Now that we have a level playing field with Shadowbringers, I think some negotiation is in order.

sadly. It used to be the haste tank, but that was gutted. It still kinda is the anti-magic tank, but it's superfluous in that regard in that "yeah sure you guys can block everything as well or better than me, but I have DARK MIND!!!"

It's still a lingering problem that the job's whole kit is devoted to a skill at 70, which was even more problematic IMO in SB.
It'd be nice for a "learn how DRK" rework to give DRK's a skill that functions like TBN earlier to prepare them for how to use it, but as a downgrade. IMO like, keep the DA proc but remove the MP cost and make it a 15% shield, then upgrade it to TBN at 70.
Charges on AD would be nice but it still would make drk's self-sustain kinda meh at 200 potency, but increasing the potency makes AoE usage bonkers.
Salted is one of the last remaining offensive field bubbles, and I still believe in 6.0 it'll be removed. I'd rather they not and make Salted do more, like have an additional effect or something.

But back on point yeah. Now that there's diversity in the tanks, maybe, hopefully, in 6.0 SE will finally be able to iron out what each tank can do and have strengths/weaknesses in their kits.

Originally Posted by MaraD_

Ive agreed as well, BUT I would like to see a convalescence effect tied to both Walking and Living dead anyways.
(1) Gives us 1 more CD to use before we get to TBN.
(2) it nearly puts you on par with PLD/GNBs ability to use it for trash packs. (even though a conv effect is nowhere NEAR as good)
(3) It wont "feel" as bad using it, when u think you're at least helping the healers somewhat, rather than saying "Well, I may survive, but I feel like a hindrance to the group anyways"

that's actually a pretty neat idea that I hadn't thought of. by giving Living dead the convalescence buff, we would effectively have a 30% healing received buff every 5 mins. that would be a nice way to sort of return the old Sole Survivor ability, albeit indirectly. I think this may indirectly incentivise bad usage though, but hey its not a bad idea at all.