"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[RyuSaarva]

You don't get to call Thunder God hard and then call ShB 'casualbringers' my man. That's like trying to say that Mist Dragon is/was hard and that's just laughable.

never said it was hard for me personally, it's just too hard for the majority of players.

[Rilifane]

I stopped here, as this "fact" is just wrong.

Savage and Ultimate bosses have so called enrages. You need to meet a required amount of damage in this time to be successfull or the entire party will instantly wipe.

So for every player that performs beolow this minimum requirement (in general the grey parses), you need other players that perform ahead this requirement.

With a party full of grey parses you will not clear any current Savage or any Ultimate.

Just did some quick math on it with the current data fflogs provides.

E5s dps requirement: 83,9k
Full party at 20 percentile, lowest dps comp (Dnc/ RdM/ Drg/ Mnk/ Sch/ WhM/ DrK/ Gnb): 86,4k

E6s dps requirement: 84,6k
Full party at 20 percentile, lowest dps comp (Brd/ RdM/ Drg/ Mnk/ WhM/ Sch/ Pld/ Gnb): 81,8k

E7s dps requirement: 86,7k
Full party at 20 percentile, lowest dps comp (Dnc/ Blm/ Drg/ Nin/ Sch/ Ast/ Pld/ Drk): 85,3k

E8s is downright impossible.
A Sam/ Smn/ RdM/ Mch/ Ast/ WhM/ Gnb/ Pld comp, the mathematically strongest at 25, is still 6k below the dps requirement.

So for a standard double melee setup with the "worst" possible party comp, E5s is still fairly easy to clear. Some comps might even clear it with everone performing roughly at 10 percentile.
E6s has the toughest dps check for a party where nobody performs higher than 20.
On E7s you should barely make it through enrage with a slightly better party comp than the one listed or if some people perform somewhere between 20-24.
A double caster comp is often stronger than double melee at this percentile, so double melee is also suboptimal in this specific setting. Mostly because players that perform at this level are generally not good at keeping uptime, which makes caster the stronger choice. Sometimes even double physical ranged beats other setups because of how much easier it is to keep uptime while playing mechanics. Escpecially E6s gives melees a hard time at this level.

So if everyone is parsing grey you can clear savage fights right now, though E6s will give you a hard time and either needs some "good" grey parsers or a better comp. The only fight that's definitely impossible even with everyone performing at a low green level is E8s but that was to be expected.
Having even one player who performs above average will almost guarantee a kill right now for e5-e7. But for 1st week or early clears in general, a grey group will not come even close to beating enrage.

[EaMett]

Just did some quick math on it with the current data fflogs provides.

E5s dps requirement: 83,9k
Full party at 20 percentile, lowest dps comp (Dnc/ RdM/ Drg/ Mnk/ Sch/ WhM/ DrK/ Gnb): 86,4k

E6s dps requirement: 84,6k
Full party at 20 percentile, lowest dps comp (Brd/ RdM/ Drg/ Mnk/ WhM/ Sch/ Pld/ Gnb): 81,8k

E7s dps requirement: 86,7k
Full party at 20 percentile, lowest dps comp (Dnc/ Blm/ Drg/ Nin/ Sch/ Ast/ Pld/ Drk): 85,3k

E8s is downright impossible.
A Sam/ Smn/ RdM/ Mch/ Ast/ WhM/ Gnb/ Pld comp, the mathematically strongest at 25, is still 6k below the dps requirement.

So for a standard double melee setup with the "worst" possible party comp, E5s is still fairly easy to clear. Some comps might even clear it with everone performing roughly at 10 percentile.
E6s has the toughest dps check for a party where nobody performs higher than 20.
On E7s you should barely make it through enrage with a slightly better party comp than the one listed or if some people perform somewhere between 20-24.
A double caster comp is often stronger than double melee at this percentile, so double melee is also suboptimal in this specific setting. Mostly because players that perform at this level are generally not good at keeping uptime, which makes caster the stronger choice. Sometimes even double physical ranged beats other setups because of how much easier it is to keep uptime while playing mechanics. Escpecially E6s gives melees a hard time at this level.

So if everyone is parsing grey you can clear savage fights right now, though E6s will give you a hard time and either needs some "good" grey parsers or a better comp. The only fight that's definitely impossible even with everyone performing at a low green level is E8s but that was to be expected.
Having even one player who performs above average will almost guarantee a kill right now for e5-e7. But for 1st week or early clears in general, a grey group will not come even close to beating enrage.

I'm going to emphasize that these are current 20 percentiles (with all the added gear, including stuff from the fights meant to be cleared). That was clear to me from your message but may not be to others.

I think that what the original poster was trying to get to was that if you cleared the fight you got at least a grey parse. He then conflated that to mean that a full party of grey parses could clear a fight (which they can't unless you're far into the tier)

[Laesha]

DNC AOE is a gain at 2 mobs... (and additional #'s)

This is what i was saying as well. I wrote it badly.

on other points i continue to disagree, but que sera

[HyoMinPark]

This is what i was saying as well. I wrote it badly.

I see. Glad to have that clarified. That said, when you see bad or incorrect advice being given, do you attempt to correct it? Or do you stay silent? Staying silent just adds to the issue—in my opinion, you’re more guilty than the player giving the wrong advice if you don’t speak up and correct it. If you don’t know if the advice is correct or incorrect, obviously there is no fault to be had. But to deliberately silent while a player tells another player something wrong just makes you a part of the problem.

This would be a scenario where chiming in would not be bad, nor would it be rude or pretentious. It might very well be that the person giving the bad/incorrect advice had no idea they were in the wrong. By educating them, you not only improve their knowledge base, but you also improve the knowledge base of others should they pass along the correct advice in the future (indirectly, of course).

There’s a lot of bad advice that gets thrown around. It’s better to try and mitigate it as best as you can rather than let it flourish.

on other points i continue to disagree, but que sera

Then we’ll have to agree to disagree—but I’d say what’s more detrimental is this attitude that a portion of the community has that we have to coddle everyone and constantly walk on eggshells around them; that we can never, under any circumstance, tell someone that they’re doing something incorrectly. There are times and places where things need to be handled delicately—but giving advice in a video game is not one of those times.

If I’m doing something wrong, I’d prefer someone to tell me as opposed to removing me without a word (you never learn what the issue is when people are silent), or allowing me to continue playing incorrectly for even longer (that just builds bad habits). It would be more embarrassing for me to realize that I was playing in a subpar manner for several levels and through several instances than to have Billy point out “Hey, if you try doing this, things will die a bit faster” or “Hey, do this rotation and your damage will go up”. But I also don’t get overly upset and think I’m being personally attacked when someone offers advice or tips—provided that they are being respectful and constructive. You catch more bees with honey, after all.

I think some need to get it out of their head that a player offering advice is the same as “calling someone out” and “publicly shaming” them. I’m sure there are instances where the intent is to shame—I’m not naive enough to believe that people aren’t vindictive at times—but to lump everyone into having that intent is presumptuous on the part of those arguing against giving advice.

[AngelCheese77]

I value method and manner, and it is on that premise that I am more likely to vote to dismiss the unsolicited advisor than anyone playing poorly. (snip) So not only do i associate unsolicited advice with bad manners and being rude, I also associate it with players who are really just talking to hear themselves talk.

And while we are on the topic of considering other players' time (which in my opinion is very ironic when it comes to this topic), I would rather work my way through a dungeon with a heal-bot (it can literally be a bot), than have some loudmouth start telling a healer to spam holy and have them get annoyed and quit, thus leaving me stuck in a party with an empty healer role that may not fill. Any time they could possibly have saved by taking the unsolicited advice is dwarfed dramatically by the additional time now required by the group to wait for a replacement, or worse, simply start over in a new q. I will always take quiet and smooth.

Really. You would kick someone for saying "Could you please AoE more, X? It will help make things go faster?" Or "Hey Tank, please put your tank stance on?" JFC who peed in your Cheerios?

I will share this story again. Was in a dungeon as a healer. Had 2 DPS, 1 was a BLM who ONLY used single target spells. Mind you, this was a lvl 55+ dungeon (Gubal Library IIRC). The other DPS just said "BLM please use your AoE spells" because the tank was pulling 2 packs. That's it. Nothing more. And you know what the BLM did? Acted like a child and used Fire2 ONCE, then went back to single target usage, as well as not rolling on any chests and complaining the whole time. Would you have kicked that other DPS (I think they were a NIN or something, can't recall) for asking the BLM to use AoEs? Would you have kicked the BLM for being rude and who knows, possibly trolling? Would you have left the party and taken the 30 min penalty? Or would you have just played through?

We kicked the BLM. Cause that one person was slowing down and affecting how the other 3 in the party wanted to play.

I've had people tell me to use Holy on big tank pulls. Honestly I didn't know why, but I did then asked why later as well as did some research. I think that is a big difference as well, people who want to learn and those who do what they want to do, spitting vitrol over advice and not caring about those other 3 people.

On topic, I hate such fancy words as elitism and casualism. Back in the day they used 'carebears'. Go figure. It's stupid and unneeded. Casual used to mean a person who didn't raid, played like less than 4 hours a week or something. I dunno. Prolly just rambling on right now. I need sugar lol

[Laesha]

I see. Glad to have that clarified. That said, when you see bad or incorrect advice being given, do you attempt to correct it? Or do you stay silent? Staying silent just adds to the issue—in my opinion, you’re more guilty than the player giving the wrong advice if you don’t speak up and correct it. If you don’t know if the advice is correct or incorrect, obviously there is no fault to be had. But to deliberately silent while a player tells another player something wrong just makes you a part of the problem.

This would be a scenario where chiming in would not be bad, nor would it be rude or pretentious. It might very well be that the person giving the bad/incorrect advice had no idea they were in the wrong. By educating them, you not only improve their knowledge base, but you also improve the knowledge base of others should they pass along the correct advice in the future (indirectly, of course).

There’s a lot of bad advice that gets thrown around. It’s better to try and mitigate it as best as you can rather than let it flourish.

Sounds like a them problem.

Also, as I've actually said (several times now), a lot of it just depends. If it seems as though the person doing the learning (making the mistakes, what-have-you) is open to learning or in a learning environment, i would as if they wanted any tips, pointers, extra guidance, etc. If we use our last interaction as an example, I would simply start with "may I offer a correction?" To me, there is nothing about this that is "tip-toe'ing" or "walking on eggshells" as you put. If yes, I would proceed to correct. If no, i would not. For me, the important thing is not offering unsolicited advice. I am not against all advice, only the presumptive stance that I (or anyone else for that matter) should listen to you regardless of what you have to say. I just believe that unsolicited advice is rude. Always. The end. None of these arguments are remotely good enough to mitigate its rudeness in my opinion. And if that's a problem for you then like... idk what to tell ya lol. Guess i'll continue to be part of the problem. *shrug*

If you want tips, by all means, go find tips. There are plenty and to spare. Some good, some not so good, but there are more than enough sources of information for any seeker to plumb. I think this is part of my disconnect with the community as well. While I generally have very little faith in people who do offer advice, I do give them enough credit to suspect they are on track to finding the truth. I guess it has a lot to do with how i view learning and how I learn myself.

So yeah, agree to disagree it is then.

[AngelCheese77]

No one's applying a negative connotations to criticism. I am explaining the already established negative connotation towards criticizing people in public. If the idea was to avoid criticism I'd be telling you not to do it at all; I wouldn't be telling you to simply do it in private.

Pulling someone aside to criticize them is just the polite thing to do. What I'm telling you about how to interact with people won't just help you communicate more effectively in this game; it's something you can apply to real life to.

You'll get a far more positive, receptive response if you're polite. That's what you want, isn't it... For casual players to be receptive of your advice?

Okay so, hm.

First off, do you really think giving someone advice outside of a dungeon will make them any more receptive than if you were inside it? If a person doesn't like being told what to do (because let's be frank here, those who complain and get nasty are just that ... don't want to be told anything different than what they are doing) saying something inside a dungeon would have them act no differently than outside it.

And secondly, I've seen people fly off the handle when someone gave advice even with the words 'please' and 'thank you'. So your 'being polite' doesn't matter. And I just can't get past how you keep saying 'criticize'.

Advice - recommendation regarding a decision or course of conduct
Criticize - indicate the faults of (someone or something) in a disapproving way

So by your definition, if words are said politely it is advice. If it is said negatively, it's criticism. Yet people can blow up when you say things nicely ... which to you would be advice (since they say it politely).

People are people, period. There are those who will act out and rant and rave if anyone tells them to do something different than what they are doing, no matter how polite someone says it.

Congratulating someone isn't criticism; congratulations are outlining a positive in someone's performance. Offering advice is criticism by design, as it's outlining a negative in someone's performance. But like I said, not all criticism is done with bad intentions or an accusatory tone. It's still rude to do in public, though.

I'm also not saying that doing it in private guarantees a receptive response. They may still tell you to take a walk and quit harassing them, but it's entirely on them at that point. You didn't criticize/embarrass them in public and did everything in your power to be courteous.

Honest question. Do you play on JP servers or are from those areas? Reason I ask is from what I've been told and seen, it is unacceptable to shame/criticize others in a group (dungeon setting) but do it in private.

[Laesha]

snip

In this situation (in Gubal) i would likely stay silent. As i've stated in past posts, as long as the tank is tanking/the healer is healing, I couldn't care less what the other dps is doing. As long as it isn't hindering my performance, i just don't care.

[Corrie]

I mean Ive had people tell me how to do some things better in dungeons and explain stuff, as long as they arent rude about it I appreciate it.