"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[HyoMinPark]

This is what i was saying as well. I wrote it badly.

I see. Glad to have that clarified. That said, when you see bad or incorrect advice being given, do you attempt to correct it? Or do you stay silent? Staying silent just adds to the issue—in my opinion, you’re more guilty than the player giving the wrong advice if you don’t speak up and correct it. If you don’t know if the advice is correct or incorrect, obviously there is no fault to be had. But to deliberately silent while a player tells another player something wrong just makes you a part of the problem.

This would be a scenario where chiming in would not be bad, nor would it be rude or pretentious. It might very well be that the person giving the bad/incorrect advice had no idea they were in the wrong. By educating them, you not only improve their knowledge base, but you also improve the knowledge base of others should they pass along the correct advice in the future (indirectly, of course).

There’s a lot of bad advice that gets thrown around. It’s better to try and mitigate it as best as you can rather than let it flourish.

on other points i continue to disagree, but que sera

Then we’ll have to agree to disagree—but I’d say what’s more detrimental is this attitude that a portion of the community has that we have to coddle everyone and constantly walk on eggshells around them; that we can never, under any circumstance, tell someone that they’re doing something incorrectly. There are times and places where things need to be handled delicately—but giving advice in a video game is not one of those times.

If I’m doing something wrong, I’d prefer someone to tell me as opposed to removing me without a word (you never learn what the issue is when people are silent), or allowing me to continue playing incorrectly for even longer (that just builds bad habits). It would be more embarrassing for me to realize that I was playing in a subpar manner for several levels and through several instances than to have Billy point out “Hey, if you try doing this, things will die a bit faster” or “Hey, do this rotation and your damage will go up”. But I also don’t get overly upset and think I’m being personally attacked when someone offers advice or tips—provided that they are being respectful and constructive. You catch more bees with honey, after all.

I think some need to get it out of their head that a player offering advice is the same as “calling someone out” and “publicly shaming” them. I’m sure there are instances where the intent is to shame—I’m not naive enough to believe that people aren’t vindictive at times—but to lump everyone into having that intent is presumptuous on the part of those arguing against giving advice.

[Laesha]

I see. Glad to have that clarified. That said, when you see bad or incorrect advice being given, do you attempt to correct it? Or do you stay silent? Staying silent just adds to the issue—in my opinion, you’re more guilty than the player giving the wrong advice if you don’t speak up and correct it. If you don’t know if the advice is correct or incorrect, obviously there is no fault to be had. But to deliberately silent while a player tells another player something wrong just makes you a part of the problem.

This would be a scenario where chiming in would not be bad, nor would it be rude or pretentious. It might very well be that the person giving the bad/incorrect advice had no idea they were in the wrong. By educating them, you not only improve their knowledge base, but you also improve the knowledge base of others should they pass along the correct advice in the future (indirectly, of course).

There’s a lot of bad advice that gets thrown around. It’s better to try and mitigate it as best as you can rather than let it flourish.

Sounds like a them problem.

Also, as I've actually said (several times now), a lot of it just depends. If it seems as though the person doing the learning (making the mistakes, what-have-you) is open to learning or in a learning environment, i would as if they wanted any tips, pointers, extra guidance, etc. If we use our last interaction as an example, I would simply start with "may I offer a correction?" To me, there is nothing about this that is "tip-toe'ing" or "walking on eggshells" as you put. If yes, I would proceed to correct. If no, i would not. For me, the important thing is not offering unsolicited advice. I am not against all advice, only the presumptive stance that I (or anyone else for that matter) should listen to you regardless of what you have to say. I just believe that unsolicited advice is rude. Always. The end. None of these arguments are remotely good enough to mitigate its rudeness in my opinion. And if that's a problem for you then like... idk what to tell ya lol. Guess i'll continue to be part of the problem. *shrug*

If you want tips, by all means, go find tips. There are plenty and to spare. Some good, some not so good, but there are more than enough sources of information for any seeker to plumb. I think this is part of my disconnect with the community as well. While I generally have very little faith in people who do offer advice, I do give them enough credit to suspect they are on track to finding the truth. I guess it has a lot to do with how i view learning and how I learn myself.

So yeah, agree to disagree it is then.

[ForteNightshade]

Also, as I've actually said (several times now), a lot of it just depends. If it seems as though the person doing the learning (making the mistakes, what-have-you) is open to learning or in a learning environment, i would as if they wanted any tips, pointers, extra guidance, etc. If we use our last interaction as an example, I would simply start with "may I offer a correction?" To me, there is nothing about this that is "tip-toe'ing" or "walking on eggshells" as you put. If yes, I would proceed to correct. If no, i would not. For me, the important thing is not offering unsolicited advice. I am not against all advice, only the presumptive stance that I (or anyone else for that matter) should listen to you regardless of what you have to say. I just believe that unsolicited advice is rude. Always. The end. None of these arguments are remotely good enough to mitigate its rudeness in my opinion. And if that's a problem for you then like... idk what to tell ya lol. Guess i'll continue to be part of the problem. *shrug*

By that logic, if a tank didn't use any cooldowns on a tank buster yet didn't die due to the healers panic healing them up, you wouldn't suggest they use cooldowns next time since it's technically unsolicited advice. And if you ask first yet they say nothing. What then? You have no way to communicate the issue unless you directly tell them what they've doing wrong and how they can fix it. Or you simply kick them.

[Laesha]

By that logic, if a tank didn't use any cooldowns on a tank buster yet didn't die due to the healers panic healing them up, you wouldn't suggest they use cooldowns next time since it's technically unsolicited advice. And if you ask first yet they say nothing. What then?

That is correct. I even said this in one of my posts. And if they ignore me/do not answer, I take it as a no.

And iono. I use Abacus-Counting-Technology all the time to make sure i'm doing a good job myself, and seeing other players putting up bad numbers just doesn't bother me. The other day I did a weekly E5 and out dps'ed 2 dps, the other tank (a warrior) and a healer on Dark Knight. The other healer was only a little bit ahead of me. It didn't change any part of my day other than make me smile to see i performed fairly well. I will just never get it. It's just so strange to me that this is so important to people.

[Daibunnie]

in FF14 the wall between casual and elitist lies in using ACT and knowing these magical unwritten rules of FF14.

Except having ACT alone doesn't mean anything since it doesn't take a parser to see a run is taking more time than usual because someone isn't playing properly. Not to mention, there are several competent ps4 players out there.

Most people who think they are elite in FF14 would get chewed up and spit out in most top 100 WoW Mythic raiding guilds and laughed out of the game.

How is this relevant in anyway? Not to mention, the raid scene in FF14 is nothing like WoWs. Don't think anyone even suggested that you must raid to be a decent player.

There are very few reality checks in FF14 that put these so called elitist in their place.

What constitutes as a "reality check" and how does it put elitists in their place? IMO, the reality check is the harder content, pointing out to the lazy/ignorant players that whatever they're doing isn't good enough to clear said content without getting heavily carried by said elitist.

It's just so strange to me that this is so important to people.

It's strange to you that several other's do consider their group's performance important? I suppose it doesn't really matter when the content is e5n or any other content that goes on repeat after its 10 minute mark.

[Laesha]

It's strange to you that several other's do consider their group's performance important? I suppose it doesn't really matter when the content is e5n or any other content that goes on repeat after its 10 minute mark.

So which is it? Is it always important that everyone is giving their best? Or is it not important in normal raids and dungeons? If it's only important in the case of savage, then I always just use a static anyway. I still ask if i can offer advice in those cases just because usually other people are speaking. I'm relatively soft spoken, so simply speaking up in the middle of a conversation usually doesn't get me anywhere. Also, if one does elect to join a static they are subject to the static's rules. If those include constantly discussing performance then they already agreed to it. To me, the term "their group" refers to something more than playing with randoms in DF'er.

But yeah, to me it is strange. When i see that I out perform people in a random group, my thoughts are never "dang I carried that scrub." They are more like "wow! i contributed a lot!"

[Lucy_Pyre]

So which is it? Is it always important that everyone is giving their best? Or is it not important in normal raids and dungeons? If it's only important in the case of savage, then I always just use a static anyway. I still ask if i can offer advice in those cases just because usually other people are speaking. I'm relatively soft spoken, so simply speaking up in the middle of a conversation usually doesn't get me anywhere. Also, if one does elect to join a static they are subject to the static's rules. If those include constantly discussing performance then they already agreed to it. To me, the term "their group" refers to something more than playing with randoms in DF'er.

But yeah, to me it is strange. When i see that I out perform people in a random group, my thoughts are never "dang I carried that scrub." They are more like "wow! i contributed a lot!"

I had a run of Cosmos for Expert about an hour and a half ago. Not only did the WHM almost never cast a Glare during bosses (and only used a handful of Holy's on trash) but the only heals he ever casted were Cure 1 and Medica. Yes, at level 80. My RDM Co-DPS had to actually use Vercure on himself and me (MCH) during the first boss at two different points in order to keep us both from dying because the healer could barely keep the DRK alive with his pitiful Cure 1. Now, I don't know about you, but when one of the DPS has to assist with the healing in order to keep themselves and their Co-DPS alive when the healer is alive and well, that's a problem. I simply cannot fathom how one gets to level 80 while being so incredibly lacking in their understanding of their job and how it functions.

[HyoMinPark]

Sounds like a them problem.

Also, as I've actually said (several times now), a lot of it just depends. If it seems as though the person doing the learning (making the mistakes, what-have-you) is open to learning or in a learning environment, i would as if they wanted any tips, pointers, extra guidance, etc. If we use our last interaction as an example, I would simply start with "may I offer a correction?" To me, there is nothing about this that is "tip-toe'ing" or "walking on eggshells" as you put. If yes, I would proceed to correct. If no, i would not. For me, the important thing is not offering unsolicited advice. I am not against all advice, only the presumptive stance that I (or anyone else for that matter) should listen to you regardless of what you have to say. I just believe that unsolicited advice is rude. Always. The end. None of these arguments are remotely good enough to mitigate its rudeness in my opinion. And if that's a problem for you then like... idk what to tell ya lol. Guess i'll continue to be part of the problem. *shrug*

If you want tips, by all means, go find tips. There are plenty and to spare. Some good, some not so good, but there are more than enough sources of information for any seeker to plumb. I think this is part of my disconnect with the community as well. While I generally have very little faith in people who do offer advice, I do give them enough credit to suspect they are on track to finding the truth. I guess it has a lot to do with how i view learning and how I learn myself.

So yeah, agree to disagree it is then.

The ironic thing is that I’ve seen it more times than I could count: players who never explicitly ask for advice when it came to a rotation or to a boss/fight mechanic—but the minute we wipe and someone happens to mention “Hey, Alliance A, you guys didn’t do X mechanic. Make sure you have Y amount of people on that pad over there to keep us from getting the bleed because it hurts”—and then Alliance A starts screaming in the chat: “WELL NO ONE TOLD US THAT WAS WHAT NEEDED TO BE DONE.” “WE HAVE A LOT OF NEW PEOPLE THAT DON’T KNOW THE MECHANICS.” “WHY DID NO ONE EXPLAIN THEM TO US.” This is always after no one has ever spoke up about needing help or not knowing what was going on.

Just because someone doesn’t directly ask for advice doesn’t mean that they aren’t open to it, or that any and all advice would be unsolicited. I’ve had more people get angry with me for not explaining mechanics right off the bat when they remained silent when asked “anyone want to know mechs?” or “everyone know how this goes?” for not telling them what to do when we wipe.

I think you really need to think about how you seem to come off as willing to allow others to impose on the time of randoms. You said in the beginning that “no one owes anyone anything”, but that’s not really true. When you’re playing a collaborative game, you are imposing on others’ time and they are imposing on yours. You owe at least a basic level of respect, and, for me, that would be performing in such a way to not be a detriment. And this extends beyond my personal performance. No one is expecting 99 or 100 percentile performance in Expert. They just want basic competence. And for players to accept any advice or criticism gracefully, even if they don’t really want to hear it. You mention how you were raised—well, that’s how I was raised. I was also raised that helping people and offering them advice isn’t inherently rude or presumptuous. So long as you are respectful in giving it, you aren’t being a jerk.

How do you even know that this is the reason why they implement Very Easy mode on solo instances? How do you even confirm that "majority even had trouble clearing fights with only 4-5 buttons to press"? Do you have any data to back this up? Or a link where the developers said this specifically?

Maybe it's just there for convenience sake? And not some tacit acknowledgement that they consider most or majority of their players are foolish simpletons incapable of playing the game with 4-5 buttons to press? I mean really........... I'm sorry, but the way some of you are viewing others playing the same game as you... "woa the *majority* are fools, not me though!*, quite frankly, rubs me the wrong way.

Another older post, but I’m slowly making my way towards the current posts of this thread lol.

I’d say it’s less “the majority” and more “a very vocal minority”. That said, your forum join date tells me that you likely weren’t around back in 4.4 and 4.5 when there was thread after thread complaining that Will of the Moon and then last solo instance of SB were “too hard” and “impossible to clear” and “needed to be nerfed”. There was a very substantial thread just about the Will of the Moon instance that continued to get bumped several months after 4.4 had released. The instance wasn’t hard by any stretch, but players failing the instance suffered from rotational and mechanical failures that they didn’t seem willing to acknowledge when they were pointed out.

To add on to this, there have been significant amounts (from, at the very least, the most vocal of vocal) of complaints about content being “too hard” and “needing to be nerfed”. From when I joined this game in HW, I’ve seen people demand that: Ozma in Weeping City be nerfed, Nidhogg in Final Steps of Faith (Story Mode) be nerfed, Dun Scaith be nerfed (most bosses in there), Shinryu (Story Mode—even when the fight had been out for a year plus, and most people overgeared it), Rabanastre be nerfed (mostly Hashmal), Ridorana be nerfed (Construct 8 too hard), Orbonne Monastery be nerfed (literally the only 24-man that gives automatic Echo because people struggled so much with TGC—which wasn’t even a difficult fight if one just paid attention to mechanics), Will of the Moon solo instance be nerfed, final SB solo instance be nerfed, Castrum Fluminis (Story Mode) be nerfed...

The list goes on.

[AngelCheese77]

The ironic thing is that I’ve seen it more times than I could count: players who never explicitly ask for advice when it came to a rotation or to a boss/fight mechanic—but the minute we wipe and someone happens to mention “Hey, Alliance A, you guys didn’t do X mechanic. Make sure you have Y amount of people on that pad over there to keep us from getting the bleed because it hurts”—and then Alliance A starts screaming in the chat: “WELL NO ONE TOLD US THAT WAS WHAT NEEDED TO BE DONE.” “WE HAVE A LOT OF NEW PEOPLE THAT DON’T KNOW THE MECHANICS.” “WHY DID NO ONE EXPLAIN THEM TO US.” This is always after no one has ever spoke up about needing help or not knowing what was going on.

Just because someone doesn’t directly ask for advice doesn’t mean that they aren’t open to it, or that any and all advice would be unsolicited. I’ve had more people get angry with me for not explaining mechanics right off the bat when they remained silent when asked “anyone want to know mechs?” or “everyone know how this goes?” for not telling them what to do when we wipe.

I think you really need to think about how you seem to come off as willing to allow others to impose on the time of randoms. You said in the beginning that “no one owes anyone anything”, but that’s not really true. When you’re playing a collaborative game, you are imposing on others’ time and they are imposing on yours. You owe at least a basic level of respect, and, for me, that would be performing in such a way to not be a detriment. And this extends beyond my personal performance. No one is expecting 99 or 100 percentile performance in Expert. They just want basic competence. And for players to accept any advice or criticism gracefully, even if they don’t really want to hear it. You mention how you were raised—well, that’s how I was raised. I was also raised that helping people and offering them advice isn’t inherently rude or presumptuous. So long as you are respectful in giving it, you aren’t being a jerk.

If I could slap on a million thumbs up on this quote above, I would. It's just ... perfect.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Guess i'll continue to be part of the problem.

At least you aren't blind to your situation.