"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[RyuSaarva]

None of those are hard encounters and furthermore just because you didn’t clear Orbonne in its first week doesn’t mean no one else did. It’s not hard nor has it ever been (including TG).

since people needed months of training before alliances could beat it with less vote abandons then yes, it was hard, you just have a distorted idea what hard means.

[Kamome-chan]

I do wonder if there's a fundamental difference in attitude with regards to normal mode content that's causing some of the conflict here.

For a lot of players here dungeons are a daily chore they only do to get tomes to progress on the content they actually do enjoy.

For a lot of casual players dungeons and normal mode raids are the game. True, maybe they wouldn't queue if dungeons didn't have a character progression reward tied to them but saying they aren't any fun at all seems unfair.

I'm not defending players that don't try, but I don't think there's anything wrong with not wanting to rush through the content as fast as possible.

Well I'm not saying they aren't fun just that the reason people do them is not because they are fun.
Doesn't mean you can't like them.
It's like Eureka/bunny it's a fun way to earn tomes/gils/mounts for some people but if you get rid of the rewards players will stop doing them.

Honestly I'd rather take more times with a bunch of happy fellows than 5-10 minutes with a angry elitist but I'd take the elitist every day over the "its just a game" dude as both are obnoxious but at least one will make it fast.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

since people needed months of training before alliances could beat it with less vote abandons then yes, it was hard, you just have a distorted idea what hard means.

Or, as people already pointed out several times, most of the playerbase is inept.

And no, you don't get to claim that it still means the content is too hard, when they're displaying sub-50 skill at level cap and refuse to improve. Game is supposed to get harder over time and expect people to improve, not freeze in time and play a lvl 80 WHM as a lvl 20 one.

[Kamome-chan]

since people needed months of training before alliances could beat it with less vote abandons then yes, it was hard, you just have a distorted idea what hard means.

I've failed the halloween event because people kept opening the jack-in-box.
Is not randomly opening the jack-in-box and look for the cryptic notes like the duty information tells you hard?

[Vahlnir]

None of those are hard encounters and furthermore just because you didn’t clear Orbonne in its first week doesn’t mean no one else did. It’s not hard nor has it ever been (including TG).

Thunder God was a pug breaker for a week or two. From my perspective it wasn't hard, it was the 23 other people who made it that way. But difficulty is relative to the player. I managed to clear Orbonne on day 2. Day 1 was absolutely horrible because of TG.

[LittleImp]

since people needed months of training before alliances could beat it with less vote abandons then yes, it was hard, you just have a distorted idea what hard means.

That encounter was 'hard' because people literally could not process the singular instruction "Take it straight to the back".

If that's where the bar for "Hard" difficulty is for us as a community, I think it's fair to say the majority of the community is genuinely incompetent.

[ForteNightshade]

Half the parties that ask for uptime strats execute them badly, or would be better off playing safe when going for a clear lol. The biggest one that boggles the mind, raiding on 2 DCs is Ilya/Uptime (or Arthars as its known in JP) KBM strat on EU (something tells me NA does the same thing). Like why would you do Ilya and Uptime KBM especially with no scythe uptime, its nonsensical to me it's like buying a ferrari and putting trash tyres on it and filling it with economy fuel. People do Ilya because it's considered safer than strats like Ayatori, but then doing KBM the way the mechanic is intended is safer than the uptime version, I don't get it.

On that note, if people want to push optimisation runs, let them do it. Not everyone wants to play this game in the same way and they are not forcing you to play with them. Toxic levels of entitlement are worse than the most ridiculously pedantic levels of elitism in MMORPGs.

The irony is Ilya is only safe for chains. Both Ayatori and Bowtie are actually easier to learn and execute because despite all eight players having to move, there is much less risk orbs will be popped. As for uptime KBM. Uptime is technically safer because if someone messes up Arm's Length/Surecast, it'll usually only kill them and no one else whereas doing the mechanic properly makes it far more likely you'll kill two people.

PF just has a weird aversion to learning new strats. It's why L strat back in O9S took so long to implement despite being the safest and uptime variant.

since people needed months of training before alliances could beat it with less vote abandons then yes, it was hard, you just have a distorted idea what hard means.

That's like saying Pokemon is a difficult game because some people get stuck on Sabrina or Gary. People also didn't need months. What are you talking about? Orbonne was being consistently cleared within the first day.

[Crushnight]

since people needed months of training before alliances could beat it with less vote abandons then yes, it was hard, you just have a distorted idea what hard means.

TGC is a very mechanically simple fight that only needs 1 level of coordination amongst the alliances(where to place expanding puddle), he is slow in his executions due to his speeches(love the references these speeches are) and is very distinct in visual clues about what he is going to do and nothing 1 shots you for a personal mess up(near/far/lightning) even having puddles explode ain't a 1 shot, the 3 in each ground marker if failed is usually what killed people which is a multiple mess up.

Philia the 1st dungeon boss of ShB has as much going on as TGC, it's not SE making things too hard it's the playerbase actively being worse than they could be if they just paid attention. In 24 mans people think they can get away with Jolt,Jolt,Jolt and not do mechanics, so when SE finally goes no(remember Weeping City) the playerbase sucks it up and actually do it. Orborne they decided to nerf it because they wanted people to try Southern Front, Weeping City/Dun Scath isn't gating anything they deem substantial so they never got needed despite people claiming they are too hard(they're not, but playerbase has such a low low bar that Titania and Shinyru story modes were considered hard).

[KalinOrthos]

since people needed months of training before alliances could beat it with less vote abandons then yes, it was hard, you just have a distorted idea what hard means.

Months? People were clearing it on the first day. Even the hardest fight in raid, TGC, was well telegraphed with simple mechanics that just really hurt everyone instead of just the player. The problem was, when some players were literally told exactly what to do, they simply refused to do it because of their own ineptitude. It wasn't hard, people just have a tendency to not listen and play with blinders on.

[HyoMinPark]

Telling a dancer not do aoe on groups of 2 or use their aoe procs on single targets. (aoe is for 3 or more)

Unlikely that you’ll bother to read this since this post is a few days old and I have no idea if you’re even still in this thread—but I’m reading through all these posts and wanted to comment. This advice is actually incorrect. And I don’t know if you’re the one who gave it or someone else—or if your comment in parentheses belongs to you. If it does, then you are actually wrong, too.

DNC AOE is a gain at 2 mobs. Windmill is 150 potency per enemy with no falloff, and Bladeshower is 200 combo potency to all enemies with no falloff. At 2 enemies, that’s 300 potency + 400 potency for a total of 700 potency for just 2 mobs, which is greater than your Cascade > Fountain combo that only sits at 250 + 300 potency for 550 potency against 1 mob. And AOE procs, when proc’d by Flourish, are supposed to be used on single targets because they’re free damage. You haven’t wasted GCDs procing them with your AOE combo; they were given to you via Flourish for free. Especially since Rising Windmill is 300 potency—same as Reverse Cascade—and Bloodshower is 400 potency—same as Fountainfall. At 3 or more mobs, you actually let your single target Flourish procs fall off because AOE beats them.

The general rule of thumb is that AOE is a gain at 3+ mobs, but there are exceptions. BRD is another that is a gain at 2+ mobs for Quick Nock over Burst Shot and Rain of Death over Bloodletter.

I will also say that I’ve played this game for going on 5 years soon, and I’ve literally never encountered a Holy macro like the one you’ve posted there. And I’ve done an obscene amount of dungeons in DF with all kinds of randoms. That seems very much like an outlier. The only thing I can think of that came close to that was HW WAR Berserk macros that would literally count down from 20 seconds to 1 second about their incoming Pacification. But even those weren’t the majority of WARs I encountered.



Giving advice in and of itself is not rude nor pretentious, especially if given in a kind, respectful manner. What is rude is the constant rebuttals of “you don’t pay my sub” or “I play how I want”. That, and how apparent it is that one would have such little respect for those who are only trying to help (or otherwise blatantly carrying them) or for the time of other people. I get that human beings are inherently selfish, but still.

Anyways, tangent over. Back to reading through this.